Posted on 05/07/2022 6:05:02 AM PDT by ChicagoConservative27
To: All
Well that’s BS
19 posted on 5/7/2022, 6:42:28 AM by gibsonguy
Your source conveniently leaves out the Maidan Revolution of 2013-2014 that overthrew the government that was the lawful successor of the one which signed the Budapest Memorandum to begin with.
The countries will fall like dominoes ...
[We’ve supplied intelligence to Ukraine, which is just as deadly as the military aid/weaponry that we have given them.]
Stupid-assed neocons believe this and side with Liz Cheney.
***Like I keep saying to you, troll: Where are these supposed neocons on FR? I don’t believe this nonsense from Cheney and do not side with her. Where are all these neocons you keep railing against? Oh I know where they are: In your head. They don’t exist here on FR.
“Actually, in trying to disrupt globalism and a “rules based international order”, it is Russia that’s fighting for our freedom.” That is so true
***You need to start tethering yourself to reality.
You trolls are sliding into bed with obambam and the projected weakness that invited invasion. Our country has a signed international agreement towards the borders & sovereignty of Ukraine in exchange for those nukes they gave up.
Russia supplied far more than just intelligence to North Korea and North Vietnam. What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
We should implement my emBASEee strategee.
One of Trump’s expressions that made me think he would be different was when he said stuff like “Bomb the shiite out of them and take their oil to pay for it.”
If we send in American boots on the ground, we damned well better be negotiating American Land as the thing to fight for. Big, sweeping American EmBASEees along the border between Russia and Ukraine. A Lend Lease project. Americans fighting for American land. For generations we could use that land to build airports and fight terrorism in that region. I would call it the BBudapest AAgreement LLend LLease program because it would take BALLs.
from my home page
I have been advocating for several years a policy I call ‘embaseees’. Embassy + AirBase —> EmBASEeees. We go into a terrorist country, clear out their taliban equivalent, then withdraw to very large Embassies, perhaps 3 of them. Have them big enough to encompass a military airbase where we can use it for decades on end to conduct anti-terrorism operations. As long as the ‘host’ country aint killing Americans then we let them have self-sovereignty. Kind of like how we operated in the Phillipines for decades. We could even have an intermediate zone that we patrol but it would be autonomous. Let them have their taste of freedom. A referendum every 10 years to see how large the boundaries of the intermediate autonomous zone should be.
https://freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/4043681/posts
_________________________________________________________
We need to stay out of other countries civil wars.
***We CAUSED this war by projecting weakness juxtaposed to our signed security/border/sovereignty assurances in the 1994 Accession to the UN Nuclear Non Proliferation Treaty. We accepted those nukes to be pulled off the table — your side seems to think that was a good idea — but now that the assurances come into play allofasudden you guys wanna just betray the Ukes.
The UN NPT doesn’t talk about lawful successors. That’s in the Accession Agreement sections, which we signed.
Thanks Zhang Fei.
We CAUSED this war by projecting weakness
It was a popular revolution... by the time parliament voted, Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0
Revolution of Dignity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolution_of_Dignity
This article is about the 2014 Ukrainian revolution. For other uses, see Revolution of Dignity (disambiguation).
Revolution of Dignity
Goals
Removal of President Viktor Yanukovych
Restoration of the 2004 amendments to the Constitution of Ukraine
Methods
Protesting, rioting, civil disobedience, insurrection
Resulted in Euromaidan / Opposition victory
Full results
Parties to the civil conflict
Euromaidan protestors
Ukraine Government of Ukraine
Supported by:
Russia (alleged)
Lead figures
Arseniy Yatsenyuk
Vitali Klitschko
Oleh Tyahnybok
Petro Poroshenko
Yuriy Lutsenko
Oleksandr Turchynov
Yulia Tymoshenko
Andriy Parubiy
Andriy Sadovyi
Arsen Avakov
Dmytro Yarosh
Ruslana
Viktor Yanukovych
Serhiy Arbuzov
Vitaliy Zakharchenko
Oleksandr Yefremov
Andriy Klyuyev
Hennadiy Kernes
Mikhail Dobkin
Viktor Pshonka
Olena Lukash
Yuriy Boyko
Leonid Kozhara
Dmytro Tabachnyk
Number
Kyiv:
400,000–800,000 protesters[8]
12,000 “self-defense sotnia”[9][10]
Across Ukraine:
50,000 (Lviv)[11]
20,000 (Cherkasy)[12]
10,000+ (Ternopil)[13]
other cities and towns
Law enforcement in Kyiv:
4,000 Berkut
1,000 Internal Troops
3,000–4,000 titushky[14]
Pro-government/anti-EU demonstrations:
20,000–60,000 (Kyiv)
40,000 (Kharkiv)[15]
15,000 (Donetsk)[16]
10,000 (Simferopol)[17]
2,500 pro-Russia (Sevastopol)[18]
Casualties and losses
Deaths: 108 (January–February)[19]
Injured: 1,100+[20][21]
Arrested: 77[22]
Deaths: 13[19]
Injured: 272[21]
Captured: 67[23]
Overall deaths: 121[19]
Overall injuries: 1,811
Ministry of Healthcare totals (16 April 2014 @6:00 LST)[24]
Not to be confused with Maidan Uprising the previous year.
The Revolution of Dignity (Ukrainian: Революція гідності, romanized: Revoliutsiia hidnosti), also known as the Maidan Revolution,[2] took place in Ukraine in February 2014[2][1] at the end of the Euromaidan protests,[1] when deadly clashes between protesters and the security forces in the Ukrainian capital Kyiv culminated in the ousting of elected President Viktor Yanukovych just prior to him being impeached.
In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) erupted in response to President Yanukovych’s sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. In February of that year, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved of finalizing the agreement with the EU.[25] Russia had put pressure on Ukraine to reject it.[26] These protests continued for months and their scope widened, with calls for the resignation of Yanukovych and the Azarov Government.[27] Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption and abuse of power, the influence of oligarchs, police brutality, and violation of human rights in Ukraine.[28][29] Repressive anti-protest laws fuelled further anger.[28] A large, barricaded protest camp occupied Independence Square in central Kyiv throughout the ‘Maidan Uprising’.
The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 19–22 January. Thousands of protesters advanced towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets, and were fired on by police snipers.[19] On 21 February, an agreement between President Yanukovych and the leaders of the parliamentary opposition was signed that called for the formation of an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections.[31] The following day, police withdrew from central Kyiv, which came under effective control of the protesters. Yanukovych fled the city and then the country.[32] That day, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (72.8% of the parliament’s 450 members).[33][34][35][31]
The interim government, led by Arseniy Yatsenyuk, signed the EU association agreement and disbanded the Berkut. Petro Poroshenko became president after a victory in the 2014 presidential elections (54.7% of the votes cast in the first round). The new government restored the 2004 amendments to the Ukrainian constitution that had been controversially repealed as unconstitutional in 2010,[39] and initiated a large-scale purge of civil servants associated with the overthrown regime.[40][41][42] There was also a widespread decommunization of the country.
Much much larger is that Biden/Z went on TV last Nov and agreed to a Uke applying for NATO plan.
***The Ukes had a Membership Action Plan MAP since 2008. Why didn’t Putin invade then? Because he wasn’t aware of the oil & gas reserves that were discovered in 2012. This is a war of conquest.
Ukes ignored the Minsk accord and shelled ethnic russians instead of giving Donbass the promised autonomy.
***The Minsk Accord was signed IN COERCION, after the Ukes were INVADED, and once they realized obambam wasn’t going to do anything for them even though we signed that UN NPT treaty towards their sovereignty and borders. They were betrayed by obambam, and you are standing right next to obambam in that betrayal, upholding it as if it were a positive thing.
SoS Baker’s “not an inch toward Moscow”
***Never heard of it. Is there a signed international treaty covering it? Otherwise it’s just a bunch of state department mumblings in the background.
yet nato added at least 5 warsaw pact countries.
***NATO has been adding countries since its inception, including countries bordering Russia at the very beginning. NATO is a voluntary organization and it seems obvious now that Finland & Sweden will be joining that it’s the right organization to be in because Russia has never invaded a NATO country.
This civil war been ongoing since 2014.We should stay out.
***Your goggles don’t go far enough past that point. This war happened after oil & gas reserves were found in 2012 and Putin started sending in operatives and rabble rousers to cause trouble in the region — the reason you don’t remember any trouble in the region before that is that there WASN’T trouble in the region before that. And there’s a signed border/sovereignty agreement in place between Russia and Ukraine that wasn’t even part of NATO. It was about nukes.
I'm sure that "completely unanimous" vote came under no coercion whatsoever. /s
Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0
***You said it yourself.
If you want to talk about coercion, then let’s talk about any agreements signed when Russia was the invader after they signed assurances towards borders/sovereignty.
But you won’t, because ... reasons and bullsnot.
The Budapest Memorandum, as well as the words of the Minsk I and II agreements.
More on the Budapest Memorandum.
I'll let woodpusher's own words (who went through all the legwork of providing the source documents for everyone to see) serve as summary:
____
As shown by the Lisbon Protocol, Ukraine obligated itself to accede to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty long before the Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine did not accede to the NPT for security but, along with Belarus and Khazhakstan, acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear nation as a condition for obtaining sovereignty.
As shown by Minsk I and Minsk II, Ukraine also took on obligations as part of a ceasefire agreement in 2014-2015, after one of its revolutions which overthrew the lawful government. The Budapest Memorandum was with a government overthrown by subsequent revolution. There is no agreement with the current, post-revolution government of Ukraine.
While you like to maintain that Ukraine should go back to the status quo ante before the Budapest Agreement, that would go back to before they were a recognized sovereign nation. You say they should get their nukes back. The international community was firm, including both the United States and Russia, that none of the breakaway USSR republics would be recognized without acceding to the NPT as a non-nuclear nation. Their only choice was to get rid of them all, or be ostracized. All three got rid of them all. Ukraine tried to make their accession conditional and the United States and Russia firmly rejected the effort. Ukraine rescinded the conditions and acceded to the NPT for recognized sovereign status.
The Budapest Memorandum is not a treaty. It is a diplomatic Memorandum. It contains no obligation by the United States, or anyone, to militarily assist or intervene in case of Ukraine being a victim of aggression. It explicitly provides that such a matter will be referred to the UN Security Council for action. That is what was done.
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There are plenty here peddling the same narrative.
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