Posted on 06/02/2020 10:08:52 AM PDT by conservative98
[[To second guess their conclusion in the Floyd autopsy makes me wonder what is really going on with this thread.]]
You are second guessing the original ME report-
[[I am sure Dr. Allecia Wilson of the University of Michigan and the President of the Michigan Association of Medical Examiners knows her field of forensic pathology well.]]
As does the first ME-
[[examining them through a microscope and, with other advanced techniques, the Baden team got a good idea at what happened.]]
The first team did the same no doubt and didn’t find evidence-
Again- we’re talking about the claim that blood flow to brain restriction caused loss of oxygen to brain- but we’re not seeing any evidence to suggest that enough force was used all around the neck to cause that- He gave an opinion- She gave an opinion, unless they have presented evidence
I am unaware of- Dr Baden had every opportunity to discuss the evidence for his opinion on hannity’s show and failed to do so- He simply gave an opinion that the chest was compressed so that the diaphragm couldn’t work- and claimed the knee on the neck caused that-
[[It is a close look at what they reported.]]
I haven’t seen anything other than the very brief reports that said ‘mechanical asphyxiation’, without providing any evidence to support that a knee caused it IF we even allow that the death was asphyxiation which runs contrary to original findings
At this point there is no reason to assume the ones done by Baden and woman- who were hired for the the family- are any more legit than the first- The update to the first gave several possible reasons why oxygen could have been depleted IF that is what caused his death- which we’ve seen no evidence to suggestion t was- but even assuming it could have been, the ‘cardiopulmonary attack’ was a very probable cause of the lack of oxygen- IF again that’s what caused death- I haven’t seen any evidence that suggests that the brain died first, then the heart- All i see are opinions that ‘the knee was the cause of his murder’ which i find hard to believe for the reasons i listed in previous posts-
I am not ruling it out IF evidence comes forward to show that the brain died first, then the heart- due to lack of oxygen, and evidence to prove that his diaphragm was restricted due to compression to the point he could not get air- Not sure how they can prove that though unless the diaphragm shows ruptures or clotting from the pressure or something- This is what i mean about the lack of evidence in the reports claiming he was killed by ‘mechanical asphyxiation’- For mechanical asphyxiation to occur, usually there is evidence- physical evidence- ruptured vessels, bruises to key points- ligature marks bulging eyes or burst eye vessels etc etc etc- IF they are goign to claim ‘mechanical asphyxiation’ resulted in murder, then they are goign to have to prove it with evidence-
Usually what happens though is one side will give their opinion of what ‘could have happened’- while the other side gives an opposing opinion IF neither side has actual proof/evidence to support the claims, and the jury will be reminded that they have to be sure, beyond a reasonable doubt, in order to give their verdict- The burden on the prosecution though is much higher- because the charge is so serious- the defendant don’t forget is innocent till proven guilty- and for serious charges, it takes a lot to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that one is guilty-
You mentioned biden and epstein case- his opinion didn’t change anything- but then again, it didn’t go to court- so who knows- but in other cases- he has been way off- I believe he did the casey anthiony case- oj, and other high profile cases where his findings were not instrumental because they conflicted with other experts- I believe he testified for the defense in oj trial and was wrong about the glove/blood and other evidence- - you can look the cases up to find out where he was off- soemoen mentioned a few cases yesterday- i can’t recall them now-
anyways- We’ll see how the case goes- I don’t beleive a knee was sufficient to cut off enough blood flow to brain- as there are several arteries that supply blood to brain- I think we will fidn out he had heart attack which caused a ‘cardiopulmonary event’, and that the drug he was high on likely was a major cause as well- as it is a well known cause of that kind of death- I think we’ll see negligence of some kind- but will it be ruled gross indifference or not? We’ll see- it was obvious he was holding him down till ambulance got there- which the police had called for- so that doesn’t go to ‘gross negligence’ totally- or gross indifference’ rather- and the fact he said he had him on his stomach because of his condition on the drugs (because he might throw up) shows it isn’t gross indifference too to an extent-
I personally think he should have used another hold while police got a good reading on pulse- and he should have listened to the people asking for them to check- at least check- this might go to a bit of carelessness on his part- but how much? The ambulance was right there, making it’s way to the scene- and he was concerned the crowd was growing hostile and might impede the scene- which is why he pulled out the spray- so he was having to deal with two issues at once- in a stressful situation- i think he made the wrong decision to wait for ambulance to makes it’s way there, but the evidence will ultimately show whether his knee was cause of death or not- I don’;t think it could have- you and others think it did- we’ll see what jury thinks with more evidence than we have-
Hannity said on his radio program that he has learned in his extensive martial arts training that there is a move that has a well delivered fist to the neck, striking the carotid artery target area, will cause a man to collapse immediately. Most people don’t understand how delicate this area is and are not familiar with the techniques of martial arts.
Now consider this. Derek Chauvin was a bouncer at the El Nuevo Rodeo club. To be a bouncer, you had to know your martial arts techniques. Experts in martial arts know that pressure to the carotid artery, or a sharp blow to the outside of the neck will cut off the blood supply and cause brain death.
[[We’ll see- it was obvious he was holding him down till ambulance got there- which the police had called for- so that doesn’t go to ‘gross negligence’ totally- or gross indifference’ rather]]
Sorry- it’;s late- not thinking well- meant ot say- their calling the ambulance shows there wasn’t a total ‘gross indifference to human life’ as does the fact that they had him on belly to try to avoid trouble from throwing up- I think these poitns will be brought out by defense to counter the claim that he ‘murdered floyd’ and was ‘gossly indifferent’ to his life as many have claimed-
The knee hold was an approved hold- and had been used many times without problems- IF it is proven to have been the cause of death though, the policy will be changed- and rightfully so- There are likely other holds they could do on drug addled people that resist violently- the knee on neck wa likely one of several choices he could have made- I personally think he was dying from heart problems as he had repeatedly claimed he ‘couldn’t breath long before he was on ground- and was acting like soemone high on a drug that does cause death quite a bit- when abused
[[striking the carotid artery target area, will cause a man to collapse immediately.]]
i heard him=- Heart attacks can completely shut off blood flow to brain as can the drug he was on- noone seems to want to talk about that- and again- the first report said no asphyxiation- here was a reason they said that- Baden says differently but provides no evidence that i know of to back his claim up-
[[To be a bouncer, you had to know your martial arts techniques. ]]
Not aware of that requirement- but that doesn’t have anything to do with a knee on neck hold approved by the force for violent people resisting arrest- which he did do when in the back of the car-
It’s 4 am- gnight
I looked up the term “mechanical asphyxiation” which the Baden team described as the cause of death. Here is what I found:
Mechanical asphyxia involves some physical force or physical abnormality that interferes with the uptake and/or delivery of oxygen. Most mechanical asphyxiants affect breathing or blood flow, the latter usually due to neck vessel or thoracic compression. This type of asphyxia is often considered a type of suffocation.
The brain is the organ most sensitive to lack of oxygen (as well as glucose) Death of brain cells occurs within 3-4 minutes of onset of lack of oxygen and/or glucose (hypoglycemia).
In the case of Floyd, both forms of mechanical asphyxia occurred. J. Alexander Kueng applied pressure on the lungs with force on the back and Derek Chauvin restricted blood flow to the brain with pressure on the neck.
After Dr Baden examined the death of Jeffrey Epstein, you would think he had a pretty good idea of what mechanical asphyxia was.
I think that Dr Baden, after examining Jeffry Epstein, had a pretty clear idea of what he was looking at. It was “mechanical asphyxia,” nearly the same thing Epstein died of. His conclusion created the meme, “Epstein did not kill himself.” But, excuse my digression.
IMHO, the first team failed to do the tests that show the results of chest compression. This is the type of compression that occurs when people are trampled in crowds as they are trying to escape a disaster. Dr. Baden and Dr. Allecia Wilson, with their advanced experience and knowledge, knew how to test for it. Maybe the first team was in a rush and did not include the tests.
The first team did not do the tests to detect carotid artery compression. The Baden Team did and knew what to look for. Instead, they examined cardiac arrest and the results of the toxicology. Maybe they were in a rush to get a conclusion and looked at the easy clues. In my mind, it looks like whitewash to get a lesser conviction for Derek Chauvin. Yet, I may have a conclusion that does not consider what happens when there is a rush to judgement. It is their conclusion that could give Chauvin a lesser sentence because it does not prove malice. In their testimony, they will have to describe the nature of their test for carotid artery compression.
I have no clue why you are sticking up for Chauvin. Why have you made a great effort on this thread to do so? And, I have found plenty of misstatements that I have had to correct. I don’t blame you for them. There are lots of areas where anyone can easily make inaccurate conclusions. Believe me, such happened with discussions about the coronavirus which many considered a mistake for the lock downs and the masks.
If Chauvin does get a lesser sentence, or no conviction, all this mayhem would have been a complete mistake. Heads would explode and walls will come tumbling down.
A heart attack AND a fentanyl overdose (though no overdose was identified) AND kneeling on his neck for almost nine minutes would kill him. The officer was responsible for one of those actions so yeah, the death was his fault. Not sure why that's so hard for you to comprehend.
Fentanyl intoxication.
Look it up.
Add a heart attack to that and see what you think.
Combine those two with kneeling on his neck and you get a dead man.
He was already dead from those two, Jim.
I did not know that you are a medical expert. I’m honored.
The real medical experts say otherwise.
If you can pretend to be clairvoyant and a medical expert then I can do the same.
Some of us will actually wait for all the facts to be in and an investigation completed before turning on the electric chair.
Did you see all the statements from the cops that were on the scene yet?
How about the statements from the EMT’s? No?
Did you see the final toxicology report yet?
Oh, I forgot. It would be stupid to look at all factors involved. Never mind.
What the hell does he know, he’s a white guy... (spit) /s
Yeah, it's no longer about Floyd. The commies have made it all about them... :(
The investigation seems to have wrapped up and charges have been filed, for Chauvin at least since he's been charged with murder. The other three may wind up being charged as well. Next up will be the trial.
Did you see all the statements from the cops that were on the scene yet?
They're lawyered up and not talking. Can't say I blame them considering they're possibly facing charges as well.
How about the statements from the EMT’s? No?
EMT wasn't there when Floyd was killed. He just delivered the body to the hospital where he was pronounced dead.
Did you see the final toxicology report yet?
What do yo expect that to show? That Floyd was dead before the cops knelt on him? Evidence doesn't support that.
Oh, I forgot. It would be stupid to look at all factors involved. Never mind.
Almost as stupid as ignoring the factors currently available. But I'll leave that to you.
“”””’The investigation seems to have wrapped up and charges have been filed,”””””””””””””””
Ok, that one made me laugh.
It took EIGHT MONTHS to charge the somali cop who leaned over his partner to shoot a white woman dead.
Do you have any more funny stories?
[[I think that Dr Baden, after examining Jeffry Epstein, had a pretty clear idea of what he was looking at. It was “mechanical asphyxia,” nearly the same thing Epstein died of.]]
IF Baden was correct- which I’m not sure he was- as other examiners looked at epstein too- but we won’t know the truth unless a trial comes out on him- He claimed epstein had a crushed windpipe- some bone in the neck was smashed- No bones in floyd’s neck were crushed- blocking off the airway as far as i know-
By the way- you can put a lot of pressure on your own carotid artery and not pass out- I did so last night- you can too to test it- Enough pressure to hurt- still didn’t pass out- George was moving his head around so the claims that the policeman ‘stood his full weight on his neck’ isn’t accurate- George was also breathing-
Baden claimed inexplicably to Sharn Hannity “Peopel say that ‘if you can talk, you can breath’, and shawn- I have been talking for a minute now without taking a breath, so it’s not true’ or soem such nonsense- The knee was on the neck for several minutes and you can clearly see george taking breaths, and speaking- there does come a point where he isn’t taking any m ore breaths, but again, this could be due to heart attack, not knee on neck or due to the drugs, and not knee on neck - this keoy point will be hashed out in court- Again- pressure to carotid doesn’t mean automatic passing out and complete blood loss to brain-
To your karate chop point- several thigns happen in a strike like that- it’s not a simple chop to the artery- it hits several main nerves with extreme force as well- which cause a temporary blackout- but regardless- you can test the coritid thing yourself-
Now, the neck is completely enveloped- and pressure is applied, cutting off all the arteries, and airway- then the person will pass out- happens all the time in MMA-
[[The first team did not do the tests to detect carotid artery compression.]]
You know this how?
[[Instead, they examined cardiac arrest and the results of the toxicology. ]]
No I’m sorry- but their report came out before the tox report- saying no asphyxiation
[[It is their conclusion that could give Chauvin a lesser sentence because it does not prove malice. ]]
At the very least He will likely be convicted in the criminal case, (not the civil) of making poor decisions that led to death- but i suspect it will be higher than that- perhaps negligent homicide-
[[I have no clue why you are sticking up for Chauvin.]]
I am sticking up for objectivity- IF baden can show crushed neck bones, ruptured airsacks or whatever, that resulted from a knee to the neck then so be it- I’m not going to jump to a conclusion at this point and claim Baden found those things when there is no indication that he did- -
[[I have found plenty of misstatements that I have had to correct.]]
Sorry- but no you haven’t- you have given your opinion which i disagreed with and pointed out why- I still disagree with the thigns you are claiming that Baden found- so no- you haven’t corrected anything-
[[If Chauvin does get a lesser sentence, or no conviction, all this mayhem would have been a complete mistake. Heads would explode and walls will come tumbling down.]]
You know why i am stickign up for obiectivity? Precisely because we’ve been down this road many times before- and first impressions were compeltely wrong- peopel judged based on emotions and not knowign all the faqcts-
The George Zimmerman case was a classic example- The Michael Brown another classic case- People saw him with his ‘hands up dont’ shoot’ and concluded a racist cop shot a ‘harmless gentle giant who just wanted to surrender’- I fought for objectivity in that case too=- not knowing at the time that the cop and brown had fought INSIDE his police car, and the cop had to fight for his life- and not knowing at the time that brown dropped his hands and charged the officer again- these facts were kept repressed by the msm- but i suspected there was more to the story and argued as such-
IF you can hsow me, and indeed FR that Floyd’s kneck has injuries consistent with strangulation, which is what ‘mechanical asphyxiation’ means really- then do so- and I’ll admit that is what took place- but until then- we have dueling autopsy reports- and you’ve chosen the one paid by the family to believe- so don’t insinuate that only others are being biased-
At this point- knowing what i know about mechanical asphyxiation, it takes a tremendous amoutn of pressure, around hte neck, to cause this- The officer did not have Floyd in aq ‘rear naked choke hold’ like hannity suggested happened- nowhere near close to a choke hold- I did not see evidence of the second officer compressing floyd’s chest preventing the diaphragm to function like Baden suggested happened, nor have i seen evidence from baden showing it did happen-
I am not going to convict anyone, in the court of public opinion, based on nothing but opinions- especially when there are dueling professional opinions to be had- Baden has been wrong in the past on high profile cases- I will withhold judgement until more evidence is presented- factual evidence- If that can’t be had, then I’ll withhold judgement until enough ‘beyond reasonable doubt’ circumstantial evidence is presented to make a case- That is how objective analysis is done-
i am NOT saying the officer didn’t cause his death- I am saying there is evidence enough, at this point, to suggest that he may not have- Everyone on this thread and many other threads has practically become judge jury and executioner and have found him guilty of being an ‘arrogant cocky white cop who gleefully murdered a blackman while black folks pleaded with him to put the due in the car’
While the video does indeed ‘look bad’ we’ve been down this road many times before- and it’;s turned out all was not what it seemed- There were many folks that believed deep i n their hearts that george zimmerman was guilty- that he had no right patrolling an area known for crime in his neighborhood, and felt he had no right to ‘stand his ground’ all of which were false- Those folks got very nasty towards anyone that argued for objectivity then- any many to this day still are very angry George was found innocent- That is the mentality of those involved in public lynchings- in mob rule- instad of waiting for all the eiveence to be presented- they find the defendant guilty in public opinion court- and nothing will change their minds- not facts, not evidence, not even video evidence- not even all those things together- Many believe the white folks in Arbery case are guilty of ‘hunting him down like an animal and executing him simply because the two father and son team were racists’- many people jumped to conclusions because hte ‘videos looked bad’ (Even though the fight was off screen where arbery was attempting to take the gun from the owner, and yanked it towards himself- the barrel that is- you can see this when they come back into frame- while smashing the man in the head with his fists- and despite evidence to the contrary- many still think arbery was an innocent man just out jogging -doing nothing wrong- I won’t get into that cases here- we’ve been all over that many times before- but i argued for objectivity in that case too- and as the days went on, more and more evidence emerged that showed that he likely wasn’t just out ‘jogging’- but you couldn’t convince many of that despite the emerging evidence-
bu anyways- you wonder why i am not just falling in line and agreeing that a white policeman was a redneck racist who gleefully murdered a blackman in full view of, and knowledge that, peopel filming him? Because it doesn’t make sense- that’s why- and the evidence so far doesn’t in my opinion, support the idea that his airway was crushed or that his neck had a stranglehold on it- I am looking at all the eivenece that shows he had serious heart issues- decided to fight the police with those serious heart issues, and he was on a drug known for stopping breathing- And because some of the things Baden was arguing do not seem to fit what happened at all
[[In my mind, it looks like whitewash to get a lesser conviction for Derek Chauvin. ]]
that again is opinion- and that’s fine- I doubt that is the case- because it is the state that did the autopsy knowing full well the prosecution is going to pick everything to pieces if they can- because that’s their job- IF it is a state run coverup- the prosecution will expose that quickly-
sorry for the long post above- didn’t realize it was that long- but some important points needed to be clarified-
Dang sorry- one more very important key point (And why i am arguing for objectivity as i do)- to get a murder conviction, (Depending on which murder decision you charge with), you have to prove ‘intent to cause death’
I personally don’t believe he intended to cause death, especially knowing full well he was on tape- (But this is just my opinion- not fact)
Many people do believe he ‘intended to kill george’ - I don’t for several reason I’ve outlined in previous posts-
Gross negligence? Yes, Negligent homicide? Perhaps- Depraved indifference to life? Possibly, but That’s going to be a hard thing to prove in court because you have to show intent to cause death if you go for certain murder charges- I think he made a very very poor choice to wait for the ambulance to get there before he took knee off- but to say he had ‘intent to murder’ is a stretch in my opinion, knowing what has come out since it happen (Subject to change of course), - and will be hard to prove- I believe-
k- too much to read through i know- sorry- but this last point is a very very important point- and will play heavily in the court case-
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