We Still Don’t Know How the Coronavirus Is Killing Us

New York Magazine ^ | 04/26/2020 | David Wallace-Wells

[RushingWater]

Over the last few weeks, the country has managed to stabilize the spread of the coronavirus sufficiently enough to begin debating when and in what ways to “reopen,” and to normalize, against all moral logic, the horrifying and ongoing death toll — thousands of Americans dying each day, in multiples of 9/11 every week now with the virus seemingly “under control.” The death rate is no longer accelerating, but holding steady, which is apparently the point at which an onrushing terror can begin fading into background noise. Meanwhile, the disease itself appears to be shape-shifting before our eyes.

[DiogenesLamp]

This would be truly unique behavior for any virus.

It is my understanding that viruses normally lose their lethality over time. If the host dies, the virus stops spreading, so the less lethal strains have a better chance to propagate, and the more lethal strains are likely to die off and not spread.

The only difference with this one is how quickly it might have become less lethal, if that is indeed what happened.

[WildHighlander57]

And, speaking of immunity, is there such a thing, with this virus?

Herd immunity/individual immunity?

[wastoute]

A red blood cell can’t replicate virions. It just can’t do it.

[Valpal1]

Because the body is mounting a delayed immune response so it overreacts, having an immunological oh shit! moment.

But that doesn’t explain the microemboli in the organs (and extremities, see Covid Toe). The last medical treatment protocol I read a couple of days ago was recommending blood thinners early and to avoid ventilators completely. I believe it was the University of Virginia med school that put it out.

[wastoute]

So you see why I am sort of rejecting any real immune system involvement. Total lack of any “immune history” means there are no “primed” T cells. So for an immune response to begin a Macrophage would have to process the novel antigen. Seems to me that could slow things down considerably.

[Bratch]

I’m just a layman, but what if the amount of the virus transmitted has some bearing on its host?

A faceful inhaled from a sneeze would be more potent than contact transmission from a table.

Is that possible?

[DiogenesLamp]

You actually don’t know that because they don’t have an accurate antibody test.

They didn't have antibody tests during the 1918 flu, or the Typhoid epidemics, the Polio epidemics, or the Smallpox epidemics, but it is safe to say that most of the people who died during the epidemics were likely killed by the epidemic.

I see no reason to doubt the official numbers. (currently around 57,000 deaths) I've seen accounts of the normal death rate for New York city (which is 145 people per day) and it is reasonable to conclude that the excessive numbers of deaths they have been having are all the consequence of corona virus.

A lot more people probably had it and didn’t even know it.

Or haven't got it and will get it.

[Balding_Eagle]

And how many “automobile deaths “ did we get in just a few minutes on 9-11?

[DiogenesLamp]

And, speaking of immunity, is there such a thing, with this virus? Herd immunity/individual immunity?

Still being debated. There are good arguments for both positions. We likely won't know the answer to this question for awhile.

[E. Pluribus Unum]

So the 30-million third-world inhabitants who are starving to death right now because of the lockdown and the hundreds of millions who will starve by the end of the year are “non-essential” and have no place in your equation, eh?

[wastoute]

Seems to me that any person who recovered would have SOMETHING. Now their immune system has “seen” it, and that takes a Macrophage to ingest and process at least one antigen from the bug itself, then present that to a “T” cell and then you are “primed” for another go. So the second time there would be bound to be a response. How strong is it, on average? How long does it last on average? If it is present can it prevent a second infection? Does the illness sometimes cause a “Cytokine Storm” and in those cases is that BECAUSE there was a prior unrecognized exposure? A lot of questions and the answers just have to be revealed. Nobody’s doing more than guessing.

I think it would be pretty exciting to see it “just disappear” as mysteriously as it came.

[DiogenesLamp]

A red blood cell can’t replicate virions. It just can’t do it.

I have seen a discussion on this topic, and one position was that the virus probably couldn't replicate inside of red blood cells, but it could likely screw up their functionality.

Then other people said that an RNA virus might very well be able to replicate inside of red blood cells.

I don't have sufficient knowledge of the subject to express a reasonable opinion on the topic.

[Steve_Seattle]

" . . . debating when and in what ways to “reopen,” and to normalize, against all moral logic, the horrifying and ongoing death toll . . . "

The classic straw-man argument. There are entire states with fewer than 50 CV deaths, hundreds of counties with fewer than 5, and hundreds more with none at all. In recent days, there have been between 20 and 30 states with fewer than 10 CV deaths per day. Yesterday there were 21 states with fewer than 5.

Returning to normal, beginning with these places with few cases and few deaths, is not a callous disregard of the loss of life, and the recognition that the loss of life in those places does not merit a complete shutdown of society is not "normalizing" the ongoing daily death of thousands of people elsewhere.

I am not going to say that the shutdowns are everywhere worse than the virus itself, but in places that have largely been spared the ravages of the CV, an ongoing, complete shutdown can have serious long-term and short-term effects, including effects on physical and mental health.

[wastoute]

I been saying that right along. We know frequently the course of an illness is a direct function of the size or number of infectious agents. But could there also be another dynamic aspect of the progression of the illness itself?

[Reily]

Any mutated characteristic that encourages lethality costs the organism the ability to proliferate as widely as possible. Maximized lethality is a potential evolutionary dead end. Best case for a virus every host gets infected no one dies.

[cherry]

the lockdown IMO has not saved one person, not one....

its postponed getting sick, maybe....

but look at the nursing homes...no visitors, staff getting checked, and still the crafty little virus is causing major infection....

you can't stop a virus.....

[wastoute]

Now you have sufficient knowledge. It can’t. The only thing that comes with the genome is nothing. It’s just the genome. To replicate that genome a cell has to have the “machinery” to do it. Ribosomes. Red cells have none. RBCs are an “end of the line” cell. They have a function. They do it. They die. The bone marrow makes more. I think frogs may be able to do it but even then I doubt it. Frog RBCs have nuclei. Not sure about Ribosomes.

[DiogenesLamp]

And how many “automobile deaths “ did we get in just a few minutes on 9-11?

You are going to have to make your point clearer if you want me to take a stab at an answer to your question.

Are you asking me how many car accidents occurred nationwide during the 911 plane crashes?

I would take the yearly deaths, divide by 365 to get the daily deaths, and then pick whatever period of time you want to call the 911 event, and work out the deaths per minute or deaths per second to cover whatever time period you want.

Not sure what the point of any of that would be.

[Valpal1]

I think the real problem is the hyper coagulation and the microemboli. Thousand of tiny blood clots in your organs and brain, especially if you are old and weak is going to eff you up big time.

This is why the ventilators don’t really help, forcing air into blocked lungs is more damaging.

That Alung machine that filters and oxygenates through an arterial port is a better option.

I’ve also become enamoured with the Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation therapy. That’s a thing that needs to make a comeback.

[wastoute]

I have long suspected the “evolution vs creation” is a way oversimplified perspective that will resolve with knowledge like every other historical controversy. Evolution implies on the political level a direction that may not be justified based on the evidence. If that makes sens.