>>Kalamata: "I guess it is possible that Alinsky Joe has never heard of the best friend and sidekick of his hero, Michael Shermer, but that is highly unlikely."
>>Joey said: "Again, there's no need for you to lie about this, but you chose to anyway. So who is the father of your lies?
You lie and fabricate so much, Alinsky Joe, it is difficult to tell when you are telling the truth. You even promote seal and walrus noses and nostrils as transitional blow holes, without a shred of evidence. LOL! We really get a kick out statements like that, Joey.
It is always fun to debate scientific illiterates who pretend to be scientists; but you are exceptionally funny. It is at times difficult to follow your childish antics, but still fun.
By the way, what is/was your profession? Political Science?
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>>Kalamata: "I disagree with his tactic of lumping into the category of holocaust denier everyone who disagrees with his warped world-view, which are the same tactics you use."
>>Joey wrote: Nothing in Shermer's Holocaust Denier book says anything about other categories of deniers.
Really? Did you even read the book? I will supply a few excerpts.
This is one of Shermer's rants against anyone who requires scientific evidence to believe his naturalistic (atheistic) world view:
"Creationists demand 'just one fossil transitional form' that shows evolution. But a single fossil cannot prove evolution. Evolution involves a convergence of fossils and many other lines of evidence, such as DNA sequence comparisons across species. For creationists to disprove evolution they would need to unravel all these independent lines of evidence and find a rival theory that can explain them better than evolution. They cannot, without invoking miracles, which are not a part of science . . . The historical theory of evolution gains confirmation by many independent lines of evidence converging on a single conclusion. Independent sets of data from geology, paleontology, botany, zoology, herpetology, entomology, biogeography, comparative anatomy, physiology, and many other sciences each point to the conclusion that life has evolved." [Shermer & Grobman, "Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It." University of California Press, Rev Ed, 2009, p.32]
The next statement is very clever. Shermer first introduces a few quacks into the discussion, and then conflates them with evidence-seekers who reject the circular arguments of modern Bible-hating "archeologists" – those who use the pretense that the Egyptian Shoshenq WAS the biblical Shishak in order to fabricate dates for historical events in the Ancient Middle East (ANE) that will never, ever match biblical chronology. Slick, huh?
"Cremo sets out to tell 'the hidden history of the human race' and in the process claims that the historical sciences of paleontology, paleoanthropology, and archaeology have conspired—sometimes deliberately, sometimes by default—to cover up evidence that indicates humans have existed in a civilized state, not for tens or hundreds of thousands of years, but for tens or hundreds of millions of years. Rather than have dinosaurs living alongside humans ten thousand years ago as 'young-earth' Christian creationists do, these 'Krishna creationists' (as some call them) have humans living alongside dinosaurs hundreds of millions of years ago. These are very 'old-earth' creationists indeed! Now, why is this denial instead of revision? The archaeologist Brad Lepper illuminates not only why, in his opinion, the authors are wrong but, more important, how he believes they distort and deny the past in order to make it fit their present religious beliefs: 'Cremo and Thompson are selectively credulous to an astonishing degree. They accept without question the testimony of nineteenth-century gold miners and quarrymen, but treat with extreme skepticism (or outright derision) the observations of twentieth-century archaeologists." [Ibid. pp.240-241]
And how about the implications of this reference?
Quoted in T. McIver, “The Protocols of Creationism: Racism, Anti-Semitism and White Supremacy in Christian Fundamentalism,” Skeptic 2, no. 4 (1994): 76-87.
Or, worse, this one:
Shermer, M. 1991. “Science Defended, Science Defined: The Louisiana Creationism Case.” Science, Technology, and Human Values 16, no. 4: 517-39.
What does that have to do with the holocaust? NOTHING! But Shermer intentionally associates those who reject the pseudo-science of evolutionism with holocaust deniers, LIKE YOU HAVE DONE!
"Let us pretend for a moment that the majority of people deny the existence of the Holocaust and that they are in the positions of power. If a mechanism for censorship exists, then the believer in the reality of the Holocaust may now be censored. Would we tolerate this? Of course not. The human mind, no matter what ideas it may generate, must never be quashed. By way of example, when evolutionists were in the minority in Tennessee in 1925 and politically powerful fundamentalists had passed legislation making it a crime to teach evolution in public schools," [Ibid. p.15]
The bottom line is, Shermer is shamelessly using the memory of the holocaust to promote his leftist agenda and his religion of evolutionism/atheism. No objective person can read that book and conclude otherwise. But, then again, you are not objective, Alinsky Joe, so you naturally admire it, and him!
I almost forgot to mention that I had previously mentioned that Shermer's propaganda also links Neo-Nazis to conservative Christians and Freepers, by falsely claiming Neo-Nazis are "right-wingers". Some links are subtle, for example, in this one he promotes fascism as right-wing:
"Consider this: Some Holocaust deniers, particularly those with extreme right-wing leanings, might gain greater acceptance if the crime attached to fascism had never actually happened. Without the Holocaust perhaps fascism would seem a more acceptable alternative to democracy." [Ibid. p.16]
Ironically, the most fascist President our nation has been forced to suffer through was Barrack Obama, who sought complete government control over industry through massive regulation. That is exactly what Hitler and Mussolini did. That is what fascism is.
Other examples of Shermer conflating holocaust deniers and fascists with the conservative right-wing are more in-your-face:
"To our minds, one defining factor in [David] Irving's on-again/off-again flirtation with denial is that he earns his living by lecturing and selling books (a difficult challenge for any author). Seemingly, the more he revises the Holocaust, the more books he sells and the more lecture invitations he receives from denier and right-wing groups." [Ibid. p.53]
"A few months later, we documented him as a white supremacist because he was running with neo-Nazi skinheads and had formed a right-wing organization known as the National Socialist Front." [Ibid. p.94]
So, if you hear those wackos on the left screaming "Nazi!" at conservatives and/or Trump supporters, you can "thank" far-left propagandists, like your hero, Michael Shermer.
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>>Joey said: "So I'll ask again, was Shermer wrong about Holocaust Denial?"
He was disgustingly wrong in using the holocaust as a front to promote his atheist, far-left agenda, as are you.
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>>Kalamata: "Did Shermer mention that the Nazi doctrine of racial superiority, which “justified” the holocaust, had it roots in Darwinism? Have you?"
>>Joey said: "I'll say it again: blaming the Holocaust on evolution theory is like blaming the 9/11 attacks on the breakfast those terrorists ate.
But it is true. It is a permanent part of history. Even Shermer admitted the link, in one of the rare times he didn't blame conservatives by association:
"The racial theories of social Darwinism gave the Nazis and others the scientific sanction they needed to make their racist ideology seem wholly rational and their actions justifiable in defense against what they considered to be a real threat to their nation and their culture." [Ibid. p.227]
The Darwinist roots of the Holocaust are well documented, Alinsky Joe, a small part of which I referenced in previous posts.
*****************
>>Kalamata: "I really am surprised (amazed, actually) that you have never heard of your hero’s best friend and sidekick."
>>Joey said: "Again, you chose to lie when lying was not necessary. Why?
If you didn't lie and fabricate so much, you would be more believable, Alinsky Joe.
Mr. Kalamata
We need to start here with an Ode to Danny Kalamata, who just can't function without belittling, insulting & mocking:
"Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you,
From glen to glen, And down the mountain side
The summer's gone, And all the flowers are falling
But Dan's good eyes are closed, your ears stopped to all but weak reed lies...
I'll use this "ode" as my one-time answer to Kalamata's future mocks, insults & belittling.
Kalamata: "You lie and fabricate so much, Alinsky Joe, it is difficult to tell when you are telling the truth."
That is your use of Denier Rules #5, #6 & #7.
Kalamata: "You even promote seal and walrus noses and nostrils as transitional blow holes, without a shred of evidence. LOL!
We really get a kick out statements like that, Joey."
Oh? "We"?? Referring to Kalamata and who else?
Now you're hung up on blow-holes, why?
Semi-aquatic and aquatic mammals don't need blow holes to breath while in water, so ancient pre-whales wouldn't need them.
When exactly nostrils like those of seals & walruses became more like a whale's blow hole is a matter for future fossil discoveries to reveal.
In the mean time, opinions can validly differ.
Kalamata: "It is always fun to debate scientific illiterates who pretend to be scientists; but you are exceptionally funny.
It is at times difficult to follow your childish antics, but still fun."
Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you...
Kalamata: "By the way, what is/was your profession?
Political Science?"
Professional truth detector swimming in a sea of predatory liars.
Kalamata on Shermer's Holocaust book: "Really?
Did you even read the book?
I will supply a few excerpts.
This is one of Shermer's rants against anyone who requires scientific evidence to believe his naturalistic (atheistic) world view:"
Thanks for the quotes, it's been nearly 20 years since I read & used Shermer's book against Holocaust deniers, had forgotten his words on other deniers.
We can notice first that in Shermer's index at the book's end, no words are referenced such as "evolution", "creationism" or "intelligent design".
Such words are not the subjects of Shermer's book.
We should also notice that here, as elsewhere, Kalamata has quoted correctly, even words that don't really support his own claims.
I'm impressed by that, if nothing else.
Kalamata quoting Shermer, year 2000:
"For creationists to disprove evolution they would need to unravel all these independent lines of evidence and find a rival theory that can explain them better than evolution.
They cannot, without invoking miracles, which are not a part of science . . . "
Shermer is correct, though the idea of "intelligent design" was intended specifically to eliminate the "miracle" and leave the "intelligence" unnamed.
Their problem is that everyone on both sides understands the word "intelligent" is intended only to mask God, and many consider that less than honest kerygma.
Kalamata: "The next statement is very clever.
Shermer first introduces a few quacks into the discussion, and then conflates them with evidence-seekers..."
In fact, Shermer clearly identifies just who he's talking about, in this particular case "old earth creationists".
Kalamata quoting Shermer:
"Rather than have dinosaurs living alongside humans ten thousand years ago as 'young-earth' Christian creationists do, these 'Krishna creationists' (as some call them) have humans living alongside dinosaurs hundreds of millions of years ago.
These are very 'old-earth' creationists indeed!
Now, why is this denial instead of revision?... "
Kalamata:
"And how about the implications of this reference?""Quoted in T. McIver, “The Protocols of Creationism: Racism, Anti-Semitism and White Supremacy in Christian Fundamentalism,” Skeptic 2, no. 4 (1994): 76-87."
Personally, I don't even like that word "fundamentalism" because I don't think it correctly describes conservative traditionalist Christians whose main focus is simply to preserve the
"Faith of our Fathers! living still
In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword:
Oh, how our hearts beat high with joy
Whene'er we hear that glorious word."
I disagree with those who'd conflate such traditionalists with racism, anti-Semitism and white supremacy.
Kalamata: "What does that have to do with the holocaust?
NOTHING!
But Shermer intentionally associates those who reject the pseudo-science of evolutionism with holocaust deniers, LIKE YOU HAVE DONE!"
Your Shermer quotes here come from his final Chapter 9, "The Rape of History", pages 231 to 256.
In it Shermer discusses many kinds of denial and offers up his own set of rules for detecting denial (pages 248-250):
Shermer's Rules for Denial Detection
- "How reliable is the source of the claim?"
- "Has the source made other claims that were clearly exaggerated?
- "Has another source verified the claim?"
- "How does the claim fit with what we know about the world and how it works?"
- "Has anyone, including and especially the claimant, gone out of the way to disprove the claim, or has only confirmatory evidence been sought?"
- "In the absence of clearly defined proof, does the preponderance of evidence converge on the claimant's conclusion or a different one?"
- "Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and tools of research or only the ones that lead to the desired conclusion?"
- "Has the claimant provided a different explanation for the observed phenomena rather than just denying the existing explanation?
- "If the claimant has proffered a new explanation, does it account for as many phenomena as the old explanation does?
- "Do the claimant's personal beliefs and biases drive the conclusions or vice versa?"
I think Shermer's rules can apply to all sorts of denial, not just the Holocaust.
Kalamata: "The bottom line is, Shermer is shamelessly using the memory of the holocaust to promote his leftist agenda and his religion of evolutionism/atheism.
No objective person can read that book and conclude otherwise.
But, then again, you are not objective, Alinsky Joe, so you naturally admire it, and him!"
For several months nearly 20 years ago I debated Holocaust deniers in a format similar to this one.
The worst of them were extremely vulgar, but setting that aside, their debate tactics were identical to those used by Kalamata, including reliance on personal attacks, insults, belittling & mockery.
And their basic strategy was the same, in effect:
- "I don't see no stinkin' evidence", even in a Holocaust museum, or, in Kalamata's case, in a Natural History museum.
- History books on the Holocaust "prove" nothing, just as science books on evolution "prove" nothing.
- Holocaust eye witnesses were all liars, just as scientists all lie about evolution.
- Holocaust forensic evidence is faked or "proves nothing" just as fossil & DNA evidence is faked or "proves nothing"
- The Holocaust is a politically motivated fantasy, just as is evolution theory.
Kalamata:
"I almost forgot to mention that I had previously mentioned that Shermer's propaganda also links Neo-Nazis to conservative Christians and Freepers, by falsely claiming Neo-Nazis are "right-wingers".
Some links are subtle..." Right, so "subtle" that only someone with extreme sensitivity, like a Kalamata, could detect or be triggered by them.
Kalamata quoting Shermer from 1991: "Some Holocaust deniers, particularly those with extreme right-wing leanings..."
Here I agree with Kalamata that Holocaust deniers, fascists, Nazis & Communists are all left-wing, not right wing as we understand that term in the United States.
For us and to the degree that "right wing" means conservative, in the USA conservative means constitutionally limited government and the Bible, not necessarily in that order.
In Shermer's defense, most people in both Europe and America have long been taught that "right wing" means fascists, Nazis and extreme American "conservatives", i.e., the KKK.
For example, discussing the KKK, white nationalism and anti-immigration:
"All three movements have called for the "purification" of American society and all are considered right-wing extremist organizations.[11][12][13][14] "
That's unfortunate and even more unfortunately way too commonly linked to
left wing extremists like fascists and National Socialists.
Kalamata: "Other examples of Shermer conflating holocaust deniers and fascists with the conservative right-wing are more in-your-face:"
Kalamata quoting Shermer from 1991: "...neo-Nazi skinheads and had formed a right-wing organization known as the National Socialist Front."
I agree that if the terms "left wing" and "right wing" have any real meaning in our American sense, then "National Socialists" are just as left wing as International Socialists, "Democratic" Socialists, fascists & Nazis.
American conservatives are the opposite of any of those things.
Kalamata: "So, if you hear those wackos on the left screaming "Nazi!" at conservatives and/or Trump supporters, you can "thank" far-left propagandists, like your hero, Michael Shermer."
I doubt if there's anyone outside the confines of Free Republic fans who can be counted on to routinely recognize the extreme difference between European "right wingers" and American conservatives.
Everyone else will simply point to the KKK and note they are said to be nationalists, racists, bigots and violent, so they are "right wing".
Kalamata on Shermer: "He was disgustingly wrong in using the holocaust as a front to promote his atheist, far-left agenda, as are you. "
As I suspected, Kalamata simply cannot answer the Holocaust question directly & honestly, and I think I know the reason.
Kalamata: "The Darwinist roots of the Holocaust are well documented, Alinsky Joe, a small part of which I referenced in previous posts."
Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you.
Hitler did not need Darwin to murder Jews.
By his own words Hitler first learned anti-Semitism in the anti-Semitic Christian Workers Party.
Darwin had the same relationship to the Holocaust as the terrorists' breakfast to 9/11/2001. ![]()