[BroJoeK]

We need to start here with an Ode to Danny Kalamata, who just can't function without belittling, insulting & mocking:

"Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you,
From glen to glen, And down the mountain side
The summer's gone, And all the flowers are falling
But Dan's good eyes are closed, your ears stopped to all but weak reed lies...

I'll use this "ode" as my one-time answer to Kalamata's future mocks, insults & belittling.

Kalamata: "You lie and fabricate so much, Alinsky Joe, it is difficult to tell when you are telling the truth."

That is your use of Denier Rules #5, #6 & #7.

Kalamata: "You even promote seal and walrus noses and nostrils as transitional blow holes, without a shred of evidence. LOL!
We really get a kick out statements like that, Joey."

Oh? "We"?? Referring to Kalamata and who else?

Now you're hung up on blow-holes, why?
Semi-aquatic and aquatic mammals don't need blow holes to breath while in water, so ancient pre-whales wouldn't need them.
When exactly nostrils like those of seals & walruses became more like a whale's blow hole is a matter for future fossil discoveries to reveal.
In the mean time, opinions can validly differ.

Kalamata: "It is always fun to debate scientific illiterates who pretend to be scientists; but you are exceptionally funny.
It is at times difficult to follow your childish antics, but still fun."

Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you...

Kalamata: "By the way, what is/was your profession?
Political Science?"

Professional truth detector swimming in a sea of predatory liars.

Kalamata on Shermer's Holocaust book: "Really?
Did you even read the book?
I will supply a few excerpts.
This is one of Shermer's rants against anyone who requires scientific evidence to believe his naturalistic (atheistic) world view:"

Thanks for the quotes, it's been nearly 20 years since I read & used Shermer's book against Holocaust deniers, had forgotten his words on other deniers.
We can notice first that in Shermer's index at the book's end, no words are referenced such as "evolution", "creationism" or "intelligent design".
Such words are not the subjects of Shermer's book.

We should also notice that here, as elsewhere, Kalamata has quoted correctly, even words that don't really support his own claims.
I'm impressed by that, if nothing else.

Kalamata quoting Shermer, year 2000:

"For creationists to disprove evolution they would need to unravel all these independent lines of evidence and find a rival theory that can explain them better than evolution.
They cannot, without invoking miracles, which are not a part of science . . . "

Shermer is correct, though the idea of "intelligent design" was intended specifically to eliminate the "miracle" and leave the "intelligence" unnamed.
Their problem is that everyone on both sides understands the word "intelligent" is intended only to mask God, and many consider that less than honest kerygma.

Kalamata: "The next statement is very clever.
Shermer first introduces a few quacks into the discussion, and then conflates them with evidence-seekers..."

In fact, Shermer clearly identifies just who he's talking about, in this particular case "old earth creationists".

Kalamata quoting Shermer:

"Rather than have dinosaurs living alongside humans ten thousand years ago as 'young-earth' Christian creationists do, these 'Krishna creationists' (as some call them) have humans living alongside dinosaurs hundreds of millions of years ago.
These are very 'old-earth' creationists indeed!
Now, why is this denial instead of revision?... "

Kalamata: "And how about the implications of this reference?"

"Quoted in T. McIver, “The Protocols of Creationism: Racism, Anti-Semitism and White Supremacy in Christian Fundamentalism,” Skeptic 2, no. 4 (1994): 76-87."

Personally, I don't even like that word "fundamentalism" because I don't think it correctly describes conservative traditionalist Christians whose main focus is simply to preserve the

"Faith of our Fathers! living still
In spite of dungeon, fire, and sword:
Oh, how our hearts beat high with joy
Whene'er we hear that glorious word."

I disagree with those who'd conflate such traditionalists with racism, anti-Semitism and white supremacy.

Kalamata: "What does that have to do with the holocaust?
NOTHING!
But Shermer intentionally associates those who reject the pseudo-science of evolutionism with holocaust deniers, LIKE YOU HAVE DONE!"

Your Shermer quotes here come from his final Chapter 9, "The Rape of History", pages 231 to 256.
In it Shermer discusses many kinds of denial and offers up his own set of rules for detecting denial (pages 248-250):

Shermer's Rules for Denial Detection

1. "How reliable is the source of the claim?"
2. "Has the source made other claims that were clearly exaggerated?
3. "Has another source verified the claim?"
4. "How does the claim fit with what we know about the world and how it works?"
5. "Has anyone, including and especially the claimant, gone out of the way to disprove the claim, or has only confirmatory evidence been sought?"
6. "In the absence of clearly defined proof, does the preponderance of evidence converge on the claimant's conclusion or a different one?"
7. "Is the claimant employing the accepted rules of reason and tools of research or only the ones that lead to the desired conclusion?"
8. "Has the claimant provided a different explanation for the observed phenomena rather than just denying the existing explanation?
9. "If the claimant has proffered a new explanation, does it account for as many phenomena as the old explanation does?
10. "Do the claimant's personal beliefs and biases drive the conclusions or vice versa?"

I think Shermer's rules can apply to all sorts of denial, not just the Holocaust.

Kalamata: "The bottom line is, Shermer is shamelessly using the memory of the holocaust to promote his leftist agenda and his religion of evolutionism/atheism.
No objective person can read that book and conclude otherwise.
But, then again, you are not objective, Alinsky Joe, so you naturally admire it, and him!"

For several months nearly 20 years ago I debated Holocaust deniers in a format similar to this one.
The worst of them were extremely vulgar, but setting that aside, their debate tactics were identical to those used by Kalamata, including reliance on personal attacks, insults, belittling & mockery.
And their basic strategy was the same, in effect:

• "I don't see no stinkin' evidence", even in a Holocaust museum, or, in Kalamata's case, in a Natural History museum.
  
• History books on the Holocaust "prove" nothing, just as science books on evolution "prove" nothing.
  
• Holocaust eye witnesses were all liars, just as scientists all lie about evolution.
  
• Holocaust forensic evidence is faked or "proves nothing" just as fossil & DNA evidence is faked or "proves nothing"
  
• The Holocaust is a politically motivated fantasy, just as is evolution theory.

Kalamata: "I almost forgot to mention that I had previously mentioned that Shermer's propaganda also links Neo-Nazis to conservative Christians and Freepers, by falsely claiming Neo-Nazis are "right-wingers".
Some links are subtle..."

Right, so "subtle" that only someone with extreme sensitivity, like a Kalamata, could detect or be triggered by them.

Kalamata quoting Shermer from 1991: "Some Holocaust deniers, particularly those with extreme right-wing leanings..."

Here I agree with Kalamata that Holocaust deniers, fascists, Nazis & Communists are all left-wing, not right wing as we understand that term in the United States.
For us and to the degree that "right wing" means conservative, in the USA conservative means constitutionally limited government and the Bible, not necessarily in that order.

In Shermer's defense, most people in both Europe and America have long been taught that "right wing" means fascists, Nazis and extreme American "conservatives", i.e., the KKK.
For example, discussing the KKK, white nationalism and anti-immigration:

"All three movements have called for the "purification" of American society and all are considered right-wing extremist organizations.[11][12][13][14] "

That's unfortunate and even more unfortunately way too commonly linked to left wing extremists like fascists and National Socialists.

Kalamata: "Other examples of Shermer conflating holocaust deniers and fascists with the conservative right-wing are more in-your-face:"

Kalamata quoting Shermer from 1991: "...neo-Nazi skinheads and had formed a right-wing organization known as the National Socialist Front."

I agree that if the terms "left wing" and "right wing" have any real meaning in our American sense, then "National Socialists" are just as left wing as International Socialists, "Democratic" Socialists, fascists & Nazis.
American conservatives are the opposite of any of those things.

Kalamata: "So, if you hear those wackos on the left screaming "Nazi!" at conservatives and/or Trump supporters, you can "thank" far-left propagandists, like your hero, Michael Shermer."

I doubt if there's anyone outside the confines of Free Republic fans who can be counted on to routinely recognize the extreme difference between European "right wingers" and American conservatives.
Everyone else will simply point to the KKK and note they are said to be nationalists, racists, bigots and violent, so they are "right wing".

Kalamata on Shermer: "He was disgustingly wrong in using the holocaust as a front to promote his atheist, far-left agenda, as are you. "

As I suspected, Kalamata simply cannot answer the Holocaust question directly & honestly, and I think I know the reason.

Kalamata: "The Darwinist roots of the Holocaust are well documented, Alinsky Joe, a small part of which I referenced in previous posts."

Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you.
Hitler did not need Darwin to murder Jews.
By his own words Hitler first learned anti-Semitism in the anti-Semitic Christian Workers Party.
Darwin had the same relationship to the Holocaust as the terrorists' breakfast to 9/11/2001.

[mdmathis6]

The Nazi’s credited their “raison d’etre to Margaret Sanger’s racist Eugenics views....you know the founder of Planned Parent hood? The saw Jews like she saw blacks.

You speak and insinuate more like a sniveling Nazi than you do a freeper!

Change agent much?

[Kalamata]

>>Joey said: "We need to start here with an Ode to Danny Kalamata, who just can't function without belittling, insulting & mocking: "Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you,

Child.

******************

>>Kalamata: "You lie and fabricate so much, Alinsky Joe, it is difficult to tell when you are telling the truth."
>>Joey said: "That is your use of Denier Rules #5, #6 & #7.

Child.

******************

>>Kalamata: "You even promote seal and walrus noses and nostrils as transitional blow holes, without a shred of evidence. LOL! We really get a kick out statements like that, Joey."
>>Joey said: "Oh? "We"?? Referring to Kalamata and who else?

Don't get all paranoid on us, Joey: I am referring to just the wife and me. We really did get a good belly-laugh from your "promotion". LOL!

******************

>>Joey said: "Now you're hung up on blow-holes, why?

Huh? I am not "hung up" on blowholes, Joey. You are.

******************

>>Joey said: "Semi-aquatic and aquatic mammals don't need blow holes to breath while in water, so ancient pre-whales wouldn't need them.

There is no such thing as a "pre-whale," Joey, except in the vivid imaginations of religious zealots.

******************

>>Joey said: "When exactly nostrils like those of seals & walruses became more like a whale's blow hole is a matter for future fossil discoveries to reveal. In the mean time, opinions can validly differ.

There you go again, Joey! The absence of evidence is NOT evidence; nor will it ever be evidence!

******************

>>Kalamata: "It is always fun to debate scientific illiterates who pretend to be scientists; but you are exceptionally funny. It is at times difficult to follow your childish antics, but still fun."
>>Joey said: "Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you...

Child.

******************

>>Kalamata: "By the way, what is/was your profession? Political Science?"
>>Joey said: "Professional truth detector swimming in a sea of predatory liars.

Just as I suspected: a professional con-man.

******************

>>Kalamata on Shermer's Holocaust book: "Really? Did you even read the book? I will supply a few excerpts. This is one of Shermer's rants against anyone who requires scientific evidence to believe his naturalistic (atheistic) world view:"
>>Joey said: "Thanks for the quotes, it's been nearly 20 years since I read & used Shermer's book against Holocaust deniers, had forgotten his words on other deniers. We can notice first that in Shermer's index at the book's end, no words are referenced such as "evolution", "creationism" or "intelligent design". Such words are not the subjects of Shermer's book.

Shermer snuck those words in, like a true professional con-man. I believe that is called, "sleight of hand", which could be the title of his book; but pretending it to be a book on holocaust deniers makes it a best seller.

******************

>>Joey said: "We should also notice that here, as elsewhere, Kalamata has quoted correctly, even words that don't really support his own claims. I'm impressed by that, if nothing else.

I am impressed by your ability to manipulate the truth, Joey. I hear CNN is hiring.

******************

>>Kalamata quoting Shermer, year 2000: "For creationists to disprove evolution they would need to unravel all these independent lines of evidence and find a rival theory that can explain them better than evolution. They cannot, without invoking miracles, which are not a part of science . . . "
>>Joey said: "Shermer is correct, though the idea of "intelligent design" was intended specifically to eliminate the "miracle" and leave the "intelligence" unnamed.

Shermer pretends his book is about holocaust denial; but in reality it is just another Far-Left hit-piece on conservatives, as well as on those who reject the false religion of evolutionism, who are perhaps conservative, as well.

******************

>>Joey said: "Their problem is that everyone on both sides understands the word "intelligent" is intended only to mask God, and many consider that less than honest kerygma.

The intent of your religion, evolutionism, is to DENY God, Joey. Was your statement just another misdirection?

For the rest of you, the Discovery Institute has Senior Fellows from practically every ideology, except for the religion of evolutionism. For example, Jonathan Wells is (or was) a Moony, of all things! David Berlinsky is a Jew and agnostic. You should seriously consider reading his book, "The Devil's Delusion: Atheism and its Scientific Pretensions," if you have not done so. He discusses some of the key themes of his book, here:

The Devil's Delusion.

******************

>>Kalamata: "The next statement is very clever. Shermer first introduces a few quacks into the discussion, and then conflates them with evidence-seekers..."
>>Joey said: "In fact, Shermer clearly identifies just who he's talking about, in this particular case "old earth creationists".

Joey quote-mined my comment, as usual. My full comment is as follows:

[Kalamata] "The next statement is very clever. Shermer first introduces a few quacks into the discussion, and then conflates them with evidence-seekers who reject the circular arguments of modern Bible-hating "archeologists" – those who use the pretense that the Egyptian Shoshenq WAS the biblical Shishak in order to fabricate dates for historical events in the Ancient Middle East (ANE) that will never, ever match biblical chronology. Slick, huh?"

Joey also forgot to mention that Shermer discusses evolution several times, in a book he pretends to be about holocaust deniers.

******************

>>Kalamata quoting Shermer: "Rather than have dinosaurs living alongside humans ten thousand years ago as 'young-earth' Christian creationists do, these 'Krishna creationists' (as some call them) have humans living alongside dinosaurs hundreds of millions of years ago. These are very 'old-earth' creationists indeed!"
>>Joey said: "Now, why is this denial instead of revision?... "

Joey again resorted to quote-mining to distort the context of my statement. He is shameless. Joey also forgot to mention that Shermer's book is supposed to be about holocaust deniers.

******************

>>Kalamata: "And how about the implications of this reference?" "Quoted in T. McIver, “The Protocols of Creationism: Racism, Anti-Semitism and White Supremacy in Christian Fundamentalism,” Skeptic 2, no. 4 (1994): 76-87."
>>Joey said: "Personally, I don't even like that word "fundamentalism" because I don't think it correctly describes conservative traditionalist Christians whose main focus is simply to preserve the "Faith of our Fathers! living still . . . I disagree with those who'd conflate such traditionalists with racism, anti-Semitism and white supremacy.

That was one of Michael Shermer's references in the book you continue to praise.

******************

>>Kalamata: "What does that have to do with the holocaust? NOTHING! But Shermer intentionally associates those who reject the pseudo-science of evolutionism with holocaust deniers, LIKE YOU HAVE DONE!"
>>Joey said: "Your Shermer quotes here come from his final Chapter 9, "The Rape of History", pages 231 to 256. In it Shermer discusses many kinds of denial and offers up his own set of rules for detecting denial (pages 248-250):

Shermer is also a denier, Joey. He denies the existence of God. Does that make him a holocaust denier?

What is your opinion of the professor who called for the death penalty for "Climate Change Deniers?"

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2012/12/professor_calls_for_death_penalty_for_climate_change_deniers.html

Crazy leftists are not likely to forget that "call to arms." It is indeed a dangerous game against conservatives that Shermer, Prothero, and you are playing, Joey.

******************

>>Joey is listing the God Denier, Michael Shermer's "Rules for Denial Detection"

If Rule #1 is not "Look in the Mirror", then Shermer's rules are even more evidence that he suffers from Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

******************

>>Joey lists the rules, and then says, "I think Shermer's rules can apply to all sorts of denial, not just the Holocaust."

I agree. It can apply to God Denial, Special Creation Denial, Intelligent Design Denial, Man Created in God's Image Denial, Global Flood Denial, Jesus Denial, Resurrection Denial, Devolution Denial, Genetic Entropy Denial, Neo-Nazi's Are Left-Wing Denial, and The Climate is Normal Denial, to name a few.

******************

>>Kalamata: "The bottom line is, Shermer is shamelessly using the memory of the holocaust to promote his leftist agenda and his religion of evolutionism/atheism. No objective person can read that book and conclude otherwise. But, then again, you are not objective, Alinsky Joe, so you naturally admire it, and him!"
>>Joey said: "For several months nearly 20 years ago I debated Holocaust deniers in a format similar to this one. The worst of them were extremely vulgar, but setting that aside, their debate tactics were identical to those used by Kalamata, including reliance on personal attacks, insults, belittling & mockery. And their basic strategy was the same, in effect:

I know you are lying about your past, Joey; but ironically you inadvertently claimed that YOU use the same debate tactics as holocaust deniers (e.g., personal attacks, insults, belittling & mockery.)

******************

>>Joey said: "I don't see no stinkin' evidence", even in a Holocaust museum, or, in Kalamata's case, in a Natural History museum."

I never said that, Joey? Are you delusional? This was my statement in #352:

[Kalamata] "The evidence in the Holocaust museum is believable, Joey. The evidence that Charlie Darwin’s philosophy — the origin of your worldview — was the primary driver of Hitler’s worldview, which led to the Holocaust, is why are so defensive and feel compelled to slander and marginalize Jews who reject Darwin and try to expose his treacherous doctrine."

Joey cannot let go of his "holocaust denier" misassociation, because slanderous implications is all he has in defense of his evolution-is-god worldview!

******************

>>Joey said: "History books on the Holocaust "prove" nothing, just as science books on evolution "prove" nothing.

You must be delusional, Joey. Do you really believe the Holocaust proves nothing?

******************

>>Joey said: "Holocaust eye witnesses were all liars, just as scientists all lie about evolution.

You are delusional, Joey. Perhaps this will help you get your head straight. Holocaust eye witnesses are eye witnesses to the holocaust. Scientists do not lie about evolution. Ideologues disguised as scientists, such as Ernst Haeckel and Eugenie Scott, lie about evolution.

******************

>>Joey said: "Holocaust forensic evidence is faked or "proves nothing" just as fossil & DNA evidence is faked or 'proves nothing'"

Do you really believe the Holocaust forensic evidence is faked, Joey?

******************

>>Joey said: "The Holocaust is a politically motivated fantasy, just as is evolution theory."

Do you really believe the Holocaust is a politically motivated fantasy, Joey?

Joey, the Holocaust actually happened. It is a well-verified historical event.

******************

>>Kalamata: "I almost forgot to mention that I had previously mentioned that Shermer's propaganda also links Neo-Nazis to conservative Christians and Freepers, by falsely claiming Neo-Nazis are "right-wingers". Some links are subtle..."
>>Joey said: "Right, so "subtle" that only someone with extreme sensitivity, like a Kalamata, could detect or be triggered by them.

Apparently Joey agrees with Shermer's misassociation of the Neo-Nazi's with the political right-wing; otherwise he would condemn it. With "friends" like Joey, conservatives do not need enemies.

******************

>>Kalamata quoting Shermer from 1991: "Some Holocaust deniers, particularly those with extreme right-wing leanings..."
>>Joey said: "Here I agree with Kalamata that Holocaust deniers, fascists, Nazis & Communists are all left-wing, not right wing as we understand that term in the United States. For us and to the degree that "right wing" means conservative, in the USA conservative means constitutionally limited government and the Bible, not necessarily in that order.

That was a quick turn-around, Joey? Do you have a short-term memory problem?

My quote was from Shermer's 2009 book on, "How to use the Holocaust to smear your ideological opponents," deceptively titled, "Denying History: Who Says the Holocaust Never Happened and Why Do They Say It."

******************

>>Joey said: "In Shermer's defense, most people in both Europe and America have long been taught that "right wing" means fascists, Nazis and extreme American "conservatives", i.e., the KKK.

You are defending Shermer's slander of conservatives by misassociation?

I am trying to make sense of this. I guess that since Shermer taught Joey how to slander by misassociation and innuendo, Joey must feel he owes him something.

******************

>>Joey said: "For example, discussing the KKK, white nationalism and anti-immigration: "All three movements have called for the "purification" of American society and all are considered right-wing extremist organizations.[11][12][13][14]. That's unfortunate and even more unfortunately way too commonly linked to left wing extremists like fascists and National Socialists."

Ignorance is no excuse, Joey, nor is your reliance on the Far-Left-controlled Wikipedia.

******************

>>Kalamata: "Other examples of Shermer conflating holocaust deniers and fascists with the conservative right-wing are more in-your-face:"
>>Kalamata quoting Shermer from 1991: "...neo-Nazi skinheads and had formed a right-wing organization known as the National Socialist Front."
>>Joey said: "I agree that if the terms "left wing" and "right wing" have any real meaning in our American sense, then "National Socialists" are just as left wing as International Socialists, "Democratic" Socialists, fascists & Nazis. American conservatives are the opposite of any of those things.

You are all over the place, Joey. Also, Shermer's book was the 2009 revised edition.

******************

>>Kalamata: "So, if you hear those wackos on the left screaming "Nazi!" at conservatives and/or Trump supporters, you can "thank" far-left propagandists, like your hero, Michael Shermer."
>>Joey said: "I doubt if there's anyone outside the confines of Free Republic fans who can be counted on to routinely recognize the extreme difference between European "right wingers" and American conservatives. Everyone else will simply point to the KKK and note they are said to be nationalists, racists, bigots and violent, so they are "right wing".

Again, you can "thank" far-left propagandists, like your hero, Michael Shermer.

******************

>>Kalamata on Shermer: "He was disgustingly wrong in using the holocaust as a front to promote his atheist, far-left agenda, as are you. "
>>Joey said: "As I suspected, Kalamata simply cannot answer the Holocaust question directly & honestly, and I think I know the reason.

That is malicious sophistry, Joey.

******************

>>Kalamata: "The Darwinist roots of the Holocaust are well documented, Alinsky Joe, a small part of which I referenced in previous posts."
>>Joey said: "Oh, Danny boy, the truth, the facts are calling you. Hitler did not need Darwin to murder Jews. By his own words Hitler first learned anti-Semitism in the anti-Semitic Christian Workers Party. Darwin had the same relationship to the Holocaust as the terrorists' breakfast to 9/11/2001.

You are rewriting history, again, Child.

For the rest of you who have not been brainwashed by that sophist, check out "Hitler and the Nazi Darwinian Worldview," by Jerry Bergman (Jerry authored the linked article of this thread.) You might also check out just about anything written by historian Richard Weikart. In one of his books on Hitler, you will find this synopsis of Hitler's religion:

"When Hitler explained how he hoped to harmonize human society with the scientific laws of nature, he emphasized principles derived from Darwinian theory, especially the racist forms of Darwinism prominent among Darwin's German disciples. These laws included human biological inequality (especially racial inequality), the human struggle for existence, and natural selection. In the Darwinian struggle for existence, multitudes perish, and only a few of the fittest individuals survive and reproduce. If this is nature's way, Hitler thought, then he should emulate nature by destroying those destined for death. Thus, in his twisted vision of religion, Hitler believed he was serving his God by annihilating the allegedly inferior humans and promoting the welfare and prolific reproduction of the supposedly superior Aryans." [Richard Weikart, "Hitler’s Religion: The Twisted Beliefs that Drove the Third Reich." Regnery History, 2016]

All of Professor Weikart's books are well-researched.

Mr. Kalamata