Posted on 04/21/2019 5:37:11 AM PDT by Kaslin
Thank you for the ping!
I believe in the shroud’s authenticity.
He is RISEN INDEED!
23 When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.
24 “Let’s not tear it,” they said to one another. “Let’s decide by lot who will get it.”
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled that said,
“They divided my clothes among them
and cast lots for my garment.”[a]
So this is what the soldiers did.
Why do we not hear about these OTHER four pieces of clothing that Jesus was wearing?
What were they? Where did they go??
If it’s an empty tomb, the answer would be nothing. It’s empty.
If YOU were going to steal a body; would you take the time to UNWRAP it?
Matthew 28:9-15
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10 Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11 Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12 And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14 And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15 So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.
And yet we are warned...
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
But anyway, He just left the wrappings in place and exited the tomb. Perhaps an Angel removed the face drape and that's why it was folded and set aside.
Some are “amazed” by what they see.... others are ‘Blessed’ have not seen and yet believe.”
I’ll take being ‘Blessed’ without seeing any day over that of being ‘amazed’ by an old piece of fabric I can look at.
He did; eh??
Luke 24:1
On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women came to the tomb, bringing the spices they had prepared.
So; just WHAT were these girls going to do with the stuff TEY had brought?
IT is?
I don't think this cloth purports to be ANYTHING!
MEN have decided what it MUST be.
They obviously knew nothing it the Roman seal that been placed on the stone before they got there.
“The napkin...rolled up in a place by itself”
As noted on EWTN, Is that important? Absolutely! Is it really significant? Yes! In order to understand the significance of the folded napkin, you have to understand a little bit about Hebrew tradition of that day. The folded napkin had to do with the Master and Servant, and every Jewish boy knew this tradition. When the servant set the dinner table for the master, he made sure that it was exactly the way the master wanted it. The table was furnished perfectly, and then the servant would wait, just out of sight, until the master had finished eating, and the servant would not dare touch that table, until the master was finished. Now if the master was done eating, he would rise from the table, wipe his fingers, his mouth, and clean his beard, and would wad up that napkin and toss it onto the table. The servant would then know to clear the table. For in those days, the wadded napkin meant, 'I'm done'. But if the master got up from the table, and folded his napkin, and laid it beside his plate, the servant would not dare touch the table, because The folded napkin meant, 'I'm coming back!' He is Coming Back!
Finish?
With 100# already used?
HE got some clothes from SOMEWHERE before meeting the women and disciples!
If God could raise Jesus from the dead, I’d think finding Him some clothes ought to be a pretty easy task.
Amazing. "Calm down..." really? You start out with an ad hominem attack on me, implying I am not "calm... or apparently rational. I am not "stroking out" and I resent your attempt to imply I am not anything but rational in my post, a move intended to denigrate me and my commentary. Your approach to this discourse is not very Christian, in my opinion.
I am an expert in this area, having researched and studied the Shroud and Jewish burial practices for over fifty years. I have read probably more than one hundred books on the topics, and quadruple that of scholarly and scientific papers. I have been the keeper of FreeRepublic’s Shroud of Turin Ping list for the last fifteen years. I’ve attended symposia on the subject and I have been published in the field. I was attempting to provide you with some benefit of those years of experience and knowledge, which included reading Essex W. Kenyon’s fictionalized opinion of what transpired with Jesus corpse in the tomb, all of which he could have known nothing so detailed as "not having time to finish prepping the head," which he had to have made up because it sounded good to explain the smaller cloth.
Science and scholarship move on with time, research, investigation, and discovery establishing FACTS based on evidence, not on mere surmise and conjecture on a few sentences in an English translation of an ancient Greek document which frequently used colloquial meanings of words from two different times, in its original and later in the translation. I follow and report the science and scholarship on the subject, especially the original meanings the writers meant when they uttered the words, not the pious, but wishful, evidence-less interpretive thinking such as Kenyon’s or the translators’. I reply to counter the long debunked claims such as Kenyon’s baseless fictionalized account.
It was just such thinking that confabulated the popularization of the late 18th Century Napoleonic discovery of Egyptian mummies with the Biblical accounts of the grave cloths, despite no such mummification wrappings ever being found in Judea, Jerusalem, or even described in literature, or recognizing the difficulty of collecting the body’s bones a year later from a mass of "bandage type windings" as required by the Mishnah. They didn’t even bother to ask the Jews how they were still burying their dead, they just assumed it was like the Egyptians. We have the advantage of far more scholarship today on these subjects, and from more original sources, than the pretty much self-educated Essek Kenyon had available to him in the early 20th Century.
I explained rationally the actual history of Jewish burial practices, gave the source, the marginalia commentary of rabbinical Torah dicta of the Mishnah, second only in authority to the Torah. That’s a written record. I also stated the historical fact there was no evidence of such a hard shell or leaving the head unfinished as Kenyon opined. None whatsoever. He made that up.
Using Jesus’ known unusual burial which we know was financed by an unrelated rich man as the benchmark for all Jewish burials cannot be extrapolated to all Jewish burials.
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Matthew 28:1-10 |
Mark 16:1-8 and 9-14 (longer ending) |
Luke 24:1-44 |
John 20:1-29 |
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1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. |
1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb |
1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them.... |
1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb |
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3 and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?" |
1b and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. |
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2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. |
4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. |
2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, |
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5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed. |
4 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. |
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5 The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. |
6 "Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. |
5b but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? |
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6b Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: |
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7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you." |
7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'" |
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8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. |
8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid. |
9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. |
2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!" |
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9 Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. |
9 When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons. 10 She went and told those who had been with him and who were mourning and weeping. |
11 but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb |
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12 Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. |
(skips here back to verse 3 for parallel) |
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Jesus' appearance on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:13-35) |
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36 While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you." 37 They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38 He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39 Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." 40 When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41 And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42 They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43 and he took it and ate it in their presence. 44 He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms." |
19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" |
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24 Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25 So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." 26 A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27 Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe." |
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29 Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." |
Heck; them four soldiers at the cross might have been the same ones at the tomb; so when they fled they could have dropped their spoils and Jesus merely put His own clothes back on!
And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
Hey Catholics: THEM - not just Peter.
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