Posted on 12/08/2018 3:15:49 PM PST by RoosterRedux
I thought this discussion was quite interesting--messy theologically--but interesting.
I was surprised at Peterson's knowledge of the Old Testament (particularly the prophets) and I thought Shapiro's comments were honest and interesting.
Here's sample of the comments by Shapiro (keep in mind that this is free flowing speech and not edited text):
Ben Shapiro:What you’re seeing is this tremendous confluence between Orthodox Jews and Observant Christians on matters of values because when Christianity in the late 20th century and mid-20th century in America--more broadly because American Christianity is very different than European Christianity--once there was the idea that Jews were not the enemy to be converted but maybe you still want to convert me but we’re not gonna come at you with a knife, we’re gonna come at you with a book, we share a common framework as to how the world is suppose to work--you just may not agree with the second half of the book--and I think that’s created a pretty good working relationship.
This is why I am struggling to come with the significant differences…I need a Christian to tell me what is the single difference.
He is a Christian, but he is also an academic...a scientist removed just enough in terms of objectivity to be able to approach the subject as an objective analyst.
Shapiro, like James Kugel (who is one of the finest human beings to have ever lived...and a professor), sounds like he is close to understanding the nature of Christ and that He is a Jew first.
Discussions like these tend to focus to much on the distinctions between the two religions -- as if they are simply two different options for anyone to accept. That's really not the case. Christianity and Judaism are philosophically at odds with each other for the simple reason that they are closely related in a way most of the people involved in these discussions never articulate well. Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism, which makes them inseparable on one level but incompatible on another. From a Christian perspective, Judaism is anachronistic at its root -- meaning it exists today outside of its appointed time and place in history.
Shapiro does raise an excellent point, though -- when he points out that variations among various Christian sects make it hard to use any of them for comparison to Judaism.
I wish Shapiro’s wife would sneak some Ritalin into his cream of wheat. The guy just cannot shut up and let somebody else speak! Even when I agree with him, he’s incredibly annoying. As a psychologist, Peterson, I’m sure, can see the guy refuses the obvious need for ADD meds, so he lets him dominate the conversation, but it’d be nice if he could get a word in edgewise.
LOL. Whenever I hear Shapiro I always think I’m listening to an old vinyl record playing at 78 RPM.
Christians have often really muffed living out the life of Christ, especially in circumstances where they found establishment privilege and could slack off and still survive. That makes for a poor witness.
The New Testament book of Hebrews points back at the Old Testament in many places, declaring the presence of the pre-incarnate Christ in places that modern Christians don’t think a lot about. For example, in the cloud of fire and pillar of smoke that escorted the Hebrews on their way in the Exodus from Egypt to the promised land. Because it’s all but ignored by modern Christians, the chance to talk about it is missed. But Christ isn’t just a “Christmas and Easter” Christ. He would not have been able to apply an Old Testament promise to the Jewish people if that is all He was. How much easier it would have been for me to understand if I could have seen past even Christmas and Easter, even though now I appreciate how important they are.
The outreach of Christ to the gentiles came with the hazard of a poor witness to the Jews. God took all that into account in His plan. And I believe through observation that quietly, many Jews do embrace the spirit of Christ — the same Christ who delivered them from Egypt — as best they can in their confused situation. As is said, a mist in the pulpit is a fog in the pew. The additional story explains some crucial things, but as the Transfiguration example of Moses and Elijah shows, not needed to be understood on earth by those delivered in order that Christ delivers from the power of the Evil One.
LOL!
But only progressive academics see that as a bad thing (not you).
Shapiro is bright and fully engage...hence intense.
I would suggest intense exercise instead of ritalin BTW.
Peterson got his bit in there...and Shapiro told us a great deal about the perceived diff between Christianity and Orthodox Judaism.
As an aside, I think meds like ritalin are over-prescribed. I took ritalin once...quickly gave it up for long, intense cardio exercise.
ADHD is a bullsh!t diagnosis by liberal quacks
The solution for ADHD's is to burn off that extra energy in exercise.
I know this up close and personal...it's a fact.
Fitting the two Testaments together is something that requires a lot of insight and has a lot of pitfalls.
The Christian groups who have gotten closest to an integrated view, such as our modern Messianic Jews, would be a good place to start. But it is also necessary to observe, with due glory given to Him, how God works in the world through both Christians and Jews. The ultimate conversion of the Jewish people is something that is still a future event.
Have they ever...And I put myself at the head of that list.
I mean so well, but I am so frikken human.
Yes, I am filled with the Holy Spirit, but I am still a maniac (though I can see the Lord at work in me).
As Charles Stanley says to me every Sunday morning on TV, hang in there...God has a hook in your mouth and is bringing you home.
When I was young, I thought I could be an asset to the Lord.
As I matured, I realized that the Lord was an asset to me...and I was nothing without Him.
The question that Shapiro asks — what denomination of Christianity are you going to look at — is a question that came to the late C. S. Lewis in the 1900s. And that is a valid question. This is how he came up with his account of “Mere Christianity.” Sitting at the crossroads of Roman Catholic and Protestant Christianity as he did in the Anglican Church, he was able to see down both roads and formulate a united view. The woman who he later married, Joy Davidson, was a Jewish woman who came to faith through Lewis’ writings.
It would be of a piece with the low key manner of God if the return of Jews to Christ had a major signpost pointing to the witness of C. S. Lewis, a man who was by no means perfect (what sinner is, in this world) but inspired by the love of the Father.
Amen brother... I have gone from “look at me, God! look at me!” to “Well, my mirror is pretty poor, please have mercy on me.”
When I read "That Hideous Strength," I see our world today.
Our world has gone crazy. But it is coming around.
I am still so ashamed.
But I can feel Him pulling me up (however slowly--my fault, not His) out of my shame.
I don’t recall Dr. Peterson actually stating that he is a Christian. I have only listened to a what is likely a small portion of what he has said, but I seem to recall him saying he was on a journey to find out if he was a believer. He did say, however, that he LIVES his life as if God is real.
That said, I think he might have come to the conclusion that, as a scientist, he should remain objective in a professional manner despite what he may believe in his heart of hearts.
Peterson is an honest man and has studied this subject (of faith).
As you and I know, it is impossible to walk away from an analysis of Christ and not be a believer.
I think Peterson is playing it down for the sake of his profession...and for once, I think that might be a good thing.
Hope all is well with you in this Holiday Season. Much love from here.
“I don’t recall Dr. Peterson actually stating that he is a Christian.”
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He doesn’t, and he isn’t. He does understand it, and recounts a very interesting narrative where he almost made that internal committment. He occupes that spiritual space where the knowledge is there and his committment is withheld. A dangerous place.
BS. What a laugh. The amount of PR lavished on that nebbish is staggering.
That is a kind way to put it, yes.
:-)
I take Concerta (controlled release Ritalin) for ADD without hyperactivity, but only started that as an adult. I guess you know you need it when it doesn’t hype you up, which it never does to me. I’m not hyperactive, but I over think and jabber too much. I am better about not saying the first thing that pops into my head. Those around me and my husband can tell when I don’t take it, which I skip a couple of times a week. It certainly isn’t addictive to me. Several of my relatives have been diagnosed with ADD, mostly as adults.
I believe Dr. Peterson was raised in a Christian home, and, like so many others, pursued higher education, which would have set him on a different path. I happen to think that Dr. Peterson is on a journey and will come back to the faith of his childhood....and won’t he be a powerful witness when he does! In the meantime, he is challenging the twisted thinking of many on the left, so I applaud him.
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