Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Lockheed Should Restart the Raptor Line If Japan Wants An F-22-F-35 Hybrid
The Drive ^ | APRIL 20, 2018 | TYLER ROGOWAY

Posted on 04/20/2018 7:34:41 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki

Reuters has published a report that came as little surprise to us at The War Zone regarding Tokyo's interest in having Japanese industry work with Lockheed Martin to develop a semi-indigenous fighter that combines the best attributes of the F-35 Lightning and F-22 Raptor.

The Reuters report states in part:

"Lockheed has discussed the idea with Japanese defense ministry officials and will make a formal proposal in response to a Japanese request for information (RFI) after it receives permission from the U.S. government to offer the sensitive military technology, said the sources, who have direct knowledge of the proposal.

The decision on whether to release parts of the highly classified aircraft designs and software to help Japan stay ahead of Chinese advances will test President Donald Trump’s promise to overhaul his country’s arms export policy.

The proposed aircraft “would combine the F-22 and F-35 and could be superior to both of them,” said one of the sources."


Although Japan has put forward notional Raptor-like designs, what they could also be talking about here is merging the higher kinematic performance and low-observability of the F-22 with the F-35's smarter attributes—including updated avionics, mission computers, and sensors—as well as new lower-maintenance skin coatings. We at The War Zone have posited exactly this, writing the following in a 2016 article dubbed 'Just Allow The F-22 To Be Exported To Japan Already':

"Japan always wanted the F-22—badly. But nearly two decades ago, congress barred the super-fighter from being exported to anyone, including America’s closest allies. This act slashed Japan’s F-22 dreams, although they kept asking.

Times have changed, and with Japan facing down a drastically more aggressive and advanced Chinese military—one that has territorial ambitions in direct conflict with Japan’s own claims. The tension has manifested in the air-to-air realm, with Japan intercepted a whopping 199 Chinese aircraft between April and June of this year, and those intercepts are getting more aggressive.

Combined with threats from North Korea, this new reality has been taken very seriously by Japan, which has put in place aggressive initiatives to upgrade existing fighter aircraft and acquire new ones with greatly enhanced lethality.

The F-22’s technologies are also no longer experimental. In fact, they are decades old. In many ways, the exportable F-35 is more technologically advanced than the F-22. At this point, the export ban on the F-22 is more of a protectionist tool to bolster the F-35’s production numbers than a national security play.

But now a $40 billion tender is being put forward by Japan to indigenously develop or import a new super fighter design. Although Mitsubishi’s X-2 technology demonstrator has just taken flight, it is just that: a technology demonstrator. Despite inaccurate press reports that the X-2 is a prototype, there's is no guarantee it will make it into production in the coming decade. Think of it more as a Bird Of Prey than a YF-22.

The USAF is finally looking at restarting the Raptor production line, but the chances of that happening are almost nil, because doing so would directly challenge the F-35 program. And although the F-22 is the only existing fighter that can actually fulfill Japan’s $40 billion tender, it will likely be shot down by Lockheed, the USAF and congress. Meanwhile, Japan is already an F-35 customer, with 42 of the jets on order.

This sounds crazy but there may be an opportunity here for Japan to foot the cost of restarting F-22 production, which is supposedly the major barrier keeping the USAF from buying more Raptors. However, the reality is that a dollar spent on a new F-22 is a dollar taken away from producing more F-35s. So although the increasingly positive platitudes from high-up USAF officials have hinted that they would love to have more F-22s, the abstract effects of doing so are politically unpalatable.

Anything to protect the F-35—and I mean anything.

So what we will probably end up with is a situation where a major US defense aerospace prime contractor, let’s say Lockheed Martin, works with Japan’s Iron Triangle supported defense industrial base to build, well, pretty much an F-22, although not an exact copy. This will come at far higher cost than just restarting the line, but doing so will not endanger the F-35’s budgetary supremacy within the USAF and the Pentagon as a whole.

This has actually been done before to a certain extent, see the Mitsubishi-Lockheed F-2, Japan’s semi-indigenous F-16. These jets, of which Japan bought a similar number of around 100, ended up costing well over $100 million each when they could have just bought advanced block F-16s for a third of that price and left comparatively little capability on the table.

It all sounds pretty stupid, doesn’t it? Here there is a real opportunity to get the F-22 back in production and likely in an upgraded fashion with more advanced and serviceable avionics and other components, potentially all on Japan’s dime. The USAF could piggyback the JASDF order and bolster its fleet of just 183 F-22s (of which only about 125 are combat coded at any given time) for largely the unit cost alone. But this super-logical offering will likely never happen, because nothing can endanger the F-35, both from a manufacturer’s point of view and Washington’s.

Japan is slated to make its “F-3” fighter choice in the summer of 2018 so there is still a couple of years for Washington to come to its senses and make an about-face on its F-22 embargo, although I wouldn't hold my breath."

Fast forward a couple years and the F-35 program has progressed past the point of no return and President Trump is looking at pretty much any opportunity it can to boost sales of weapons to allied nations. With this in mind, the chances of such an initiative actually happening have increased dramatically. The biggest question is does Japan have the financial capacity to take down such an expensive project, especially considering other new competing priorities. These include everything from acquiring a cruise missile, to setting up Aegis Ashore ballistic missile defense batteries, to fielding F-35Bs on its helicopter carriers.

The $366M Mitsubishi X-2 technology demonstrator took its final flight last year after a relatively short life. Apparently, technical difficulties impacted the program and it was clear that Japan would need a deep foreign partnership in order to field a stealth fighter that could also benefit Japanese industry:

What's also new is that the USAF has completed a study that looked into what it would cost to put an updated F-22 back into production. The basic findings were:

-Approximately $50 billion to procure 194 additional F-22s

-The total includes an estimate of approximately $7 billion to $10 billion for non-recurring start-up costs and $40.4 billion for aircraft procurement costs

-An estimated cost of $206 million to $216 million per aircraft (the last F-22 produced had a unit cost of $137 million)

That cost may be too high for the USAF to stomach, but for Japan, it's highly unlikely they will be able to field something superior to an updated F-22 for anywhere near less. It's also likely that once the U.S.-specific politics of putting the Raptor back into production are removed from the equation, the cost of doing so would drop.

But if Japan is willing to buy an updated Raptor instead of developing a near identical but still unique design, clearly doing so would present a mutually beneficial opportunity. If the U.S. would become a minority stakeholder in an F-22 production line restart of sorts, with the intent on buying a number of airframes to bolster the USAF's undersized and cherished F-22 fleet, then the opportunity could work out for both parties.

Once again, the F-35 lobby will be strongly against such a move even though the F-35's future is now assured. Any fighter dollar given to another program is one less spent on it, but the possibility that the USAF could acquire a Raptor 2.0 of sorts without bearing the vast majority of the non-recurring restart and development costs is an incredible proposition. If Japan is looking to buy a couple hundred fighters and the U.S. was to add onto that order, the unit cost for each jet would plummet as well.

As for Japan, it would benefit by realizing lowered unit costs, technology transfer, and also by being a key supplier for certain components of the jets built for both Japan and the United States. The potential to export the jet could also be an added benefit, but this would likely be curtailed by the U.S. in order to protect F-35 sales abroad. But above all else, Japan will be able to lower its risk substantially by buying into an existing and proven airframe, improving upon it, and will benefit from the full backing of the U.S. government and industry in doing so.

Also, keep in mind Donald Trump's extremely close relationship with Prime Minister Shinzo Abe. Approving Japan to get 'the very best' while also lining the pockets of big defense contractors seems like a very attractive proposition for Donald Trump. And it seems pretty clear that when it comes to weapons export to Japan, Trump is willing and ready to give Abe what he wants.

We will watch how this story develops closely, but if the Pentagon was smart, they would embrace an upgraded F-22 restart with Japan, and if Tokyo is willing to foot the majority of the bill for doing so, the USAF would be nuts not to take advantage of it.

TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Japan; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abouttime; aerospace; china; f22; f35; japan; lockheedmartin; republicofkorea
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-25 next last
More pix/video at source
1 posted on 04/20/2018 7:34:42 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

I don’t see why not. Japan won’t turn on us ever again. And if they do, we can always just nuke em again.

Too soon?

2 posted on 04/20/2018 7:37:35 PM PDT by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DesertRhino

I don’t think it’s too soon.

China is so good at back-engineering other people’s military equipment, it would cause me to stop and think if we want these out there or not, for them to steal or spy on.

Of course along comes two fools like the Clintons, and they’ll just hand China the blueprints and the complete research and development info.

Perhaps it’ time to rethink the F22, and incorporate new technology without doing a full F35 morph.

3 posted on 04/20/2018 7:45:52 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (01/26/18 DJIA 30 stocks $26,616.71 48.794% > open 11/07/16 215.71 from 50% increase 1.2183 yrs..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki
... the USAF would be nuts not to take advantage of it.

And anyone that has ever dealt with the Pentagon understands why it won't happen.

If the perfumed princes fought land battles as ferociously as they fight their turf wars the US would be invincible.

4 posted on 04/20/2018 7:45:57 PM PDT by texas booster (Join FreeRepublic's Folding@Home team (Team # 36120) Cure Alzheimer's!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki
F22s are hands down the must advanced air supperiorty fighter plane on the planet. They can still eat F35s for a light snack.

Everyone else’s stuff can’t touch even F35s. Yes, the program had problems, but per public media they’ve been sorted out. See

Well, that’s except for some of our newest stuff. What, people think toilet seats really cost $5k each and our scientists haven’t kept working (even under Obama)?! LOL.

To be fair, I haven’t been involved for over a decade so this is just supposition. But I do know how to read contrails, for example donughts on a rope contrails.

5 posted on 04/20/2018 7:54:39 PM PDT by piytar (
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne

Well, Japan improved the F-15 by installing a phased array solid state radar.

6 posted on 04/20/2018 7:55:40 PM PDT by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: texas booster

Regarding your comment: 100% accurate.

7 posted on 04/20/2018 7:59:17 PM PDT by piytar (
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: DesertRhino

That’s good. I’m not tanking the idea due to the thought they wouldn’t be up to par on the merchandise.

Israel comes up with some very creative after market ideas too.

8 posted on 04/20/2018 7:59:32 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (01/26/18 DJIA 30 stocks $26,616.71 48.794% > open 11/07/16 215.71 from 50% increase 1.2183 yrs..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

I’m glad Reagan decided to build a few more B1 bombers.

9 posted on 04/20/2018 8:08:12 PM PDT by clearcarbon
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: piytar

Sorry donuts on a rope contrails. And heck even that stuff is old.

10 posted on 04/20/2018 8:08:51 PM PDT by piytar (
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki
Sell them the F-23 w/ the F-35's electronics....

Think about it...

11 posted on 04/20/2018 8:20:13 PM PDT by taildragger ("Do you hear the people Singing? Singing the Song of Angry Men!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

It would be great either way. The F-35 is a boondoggle nightmare money pit. Good demonstrator of everything wrong with fedgov.

Yes, it’s that friken bad.

12 posted on 04/20/2018 8:31:59 PM PDT by Basket_of_Deplorables (Trump has implemented Supply Side Economics!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

For this baby boomer there’s gonna be a mental pause seeing a squad of top line fighters with meatballs on their wings.

13 posted on 04/20/2018 8:41:57 PM PDT by Rebelbase ( Zoo + Prison + Circus = Public Shool)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: DoughtyOne

Very true about the Israelis.

14 posted on 04/20/2018 9:16:08 PM PDT by DesertRhino (Dog is man's best friend, and moslems hate dogs. Add that up. ....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: taildragger

That would probably give our F22 some stiff competition.

I’ve seen the F23 praised, and it was no slouch design.

15 posted on 04/20/2018 9:18:28 PM PDT by DoughtyOne (01/26/18 DJIA 30 stocks $26,616.71 48.794% > open 11/07/16 215.71 from 50% increase 1.2183 yrs..)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: piytar
Even IF the implications of such an exhaust trail mean anything, it sure as hell is not an air superiority fighter.

SR-71 mission is another topic from F-22/F-35.

16 posted on 04/20/2018 9:46:20 PM PDT by doorgunner69 (Give me the liberty to take care of my own security..........)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: Rebelbase
For this baby boomer there’s gonna be a mental pause seeing a squad of top line fighters with meatballs on their wings.

Yeah, it used to strike me as odd years ago, seeing F-104 Starfighters in both Japanese and German livery. More recently, the F-16 variants built by Japan have struck the same chord. Then I'm reminded of Patton's caustic comments about the French focusing on the "last war" and shake it off.

I hope the boneheads in Congress and the Pentagon can see this as an opportunity to keep the F-22 design fresh, rather than treating it like an exotic, low-production hangar queen. We've already lost a few of the small number that were produced; this is a chance to replace those airframes with someone else paying to re-start the production line.

17 posted on 04/20/2018 10:34:04 PM PDT by Charles Martel (Progressives are the crab grass in the lawn of life.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

Japan??? “ transfer...”

Sorry, but I remember Toshiba’s transferring of our submarine propeller design to the Soviets in the 1980-90’s. Japan has proven itself untrustworthy in protecting our defense technology in search of the almighty Yen.

OK I’m an elephant with a long memory....I never forget.......I never forgive either.....

18 posted on 04/20/2018 11:18:05 PM PDT by Forty-Niner (The barely bare, berry Bear formily known as Ursus Arctos Horrilibis (or U.A. Californicus))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

This is a great idea, and would produce a great nexr-gen air supremacy fighter for less cost to the US.

I wonder if Trump’s common sense might overcome the certain opposition to this...

19 posted on 04/21/2018 5:14:12 AM PDT by PreciousLiberty (Make America Greater Than Ever!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: sukhoi-30mki

Technologically given to Japan often finds it’s way to Red China. Not good, the Japanese can not be trusted with our military secrets.

20 posted on 04/21/2018 5:29:50 AM PDT by jpsb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-2021-25 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794 is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson