Waco Blunders Through Its 'Biker Shootout' Investigation

The Atlantic ^ | December 22, 2015 | Conor Friedersdorf

[Boogieman]

Oh sure, sure. They don’t agree with the conspiracy talking points, but they aren’t the cops, so they just must be lying for some strange reason.

[Smokin' Joe]

Nope, it doesn't. General wound size from the autopsy is not definitive.

Ballistics data is required to determine the caliber of weapon, and in this case, since the firearms were all rounded up and the police should not have ditched any, individual bullets should be able to be matched with the arms that fired them, provided the bullets are not too fragmented or distorted.

Then we will know who shot who.

[Boogieman]

” The government wouldn’t have been preventing assembly, per se, it would have been closing one venue, at most...”

Closing one venue in order to accomplish what? Oh yeah, to prevent an assembly.

“... and by enlisting the proprietor, there is no violation, period. There wouldn’t be “government action.”

The proprietor wouldn’t cooperate, so necessarily, in order to stop it, as many posters around here seem to think the cops should have done, would have required government action WITHOUT the proprietor’s consent.

[Boogieman]

“None of those versions corroborates your original contention.”

My original contention is supported by the statements of the police, which you attempted to impeach by citing the franchisees, even though their own corporate office basically called them liars.

[CPT Clay]

any indictments against agents that executed bikers?

Where are the ballistics from the dead?

This stinks.

[Cboldt]

-- My original contention is supported by the statements of the police, which you attempted to impeach by citing the franchisees ... --

All agree that the original contention is one made by Stroman. Stroman's contention is not supported by the DPS report, as well as being denied by the franchisee.

-- ... even though their [franchisee] own corporate office basically called them liars. --

Got a cite for that? Did the corporate offices claim that the franchisee refused to cooperate with the police?

[Boogieman]

“Got a cite for that?”

I already posted the quote. If you choose to ignore it, that’s your problem.

[Boogieman]

“There had been no melee for the 20 years.”

Are you talking about at the COC meeting or between the two warring gangs in general? Because there certainly had been melees between the Cossacks and Bandidos a lot more recently than that.

[Cboldt]

-- Closing one venue in order to accomplish what? Oh yeah, to prevent an assembly. --

Is your claim that closing off a public accommodation to a group of people is a first amendment violation? You didn't respond to the Mall of America v. BLM example, which prevents an assembly of BLM at Mall of America, and only at Mall of America. BLM can spout off someplace else.

-- ... in order to stop it ... would have required government action WITHOUT the proprietor's consent. --

My contention (which you claim is a first amendment violation) is that this would have been legal before the violence started. The government claims to have probable cause of gang criminal conspiracy.

Even without probable cause for criminal conspiracy, the police could have lanced this boil before it erupted. See Peaktastic (franchisor) Motion to Designate Unknown Criminal Actors and law Enforcement as Responsible Third Parties, in the suit against Peaktastic by Don Carlos.

[Boogieman]

Seems like you’re the only one calling bikers “evil”, even if you are doing it sarcastically.

[Boogieman]

Well, not exactly a family establishment, but the infamous Harrah’s casino shootout is probably the closest case in similarity to this one.

[Cboldt]

Your cite ...

"The franchisee's statement, issued late in the day, also conflicts with a statement made by Twin Peaks corporate made earlier, that the on site operator was told of law enforcement's concerns and gave assurances that appropriate security measures had been taken."

... has no bearing on the fundamental point, that your contention that the franchisee refused to cooperate with law enforcement, is disputed by DPS as well as by the franchisee. I suspect your contention is also disputed by the franchisor.

[Prolixus]

What exactly do you expect police to do BEFORE a crime has been committed?

Police are tasked with keeping the peace (preventing crime). The Waco Police were at Twin Peaks before the bikers. Did they just sit there watching multiple felonies being committed before they got out of their patrol cars with guns a-blazin'? That is what it looks like.

Whatever reason the Waco Police were at Twin Peaks, they lost control of the situation. They failed in their task to keep the peace.

[bgill]

Here are some of the agencies there:

McClennan Co. Sheriff and Waco Police Dept.

On left is "Red Boots" who we suspect is an undercover. Uniform is a state trooper. Behind trooper in black is another undercover, imo.

ATF.

This guy's cap says CSAT or CBAT with the C for Covert. The star on the patch is too far to the east to be Waco so it's anyone's guess who he might be.

Can't find the West PD guys but they were there. Here's the West ambulance.

Yeah, this vehicle just happened to be there for no particular reason.

Can't imagine what that crane with a high advantage point would be there for.

[Boogieman]

“Did they just sit there watching multiple felonies being committed...”

What multiple felonies do you think that they saw happening BEFORE the violent shootout?

After all, once they saw the violent shootout they did act to stop it, so you can’t possibly be complaining about that...

[Boogieman]

“... has no bearing on the fundamental point”

It certainly has bearing on the credibility of the source you cited to try and contradict the police statement.

[don-o]

The Waco Police were at Twin Peaks before the bikers. Did they just sit there watching multiple felonies being committed before they got out of their patrol cars with guns a-blazin'? That is what it looks like.

According to Waco Chief of Police, his men were, indeed sitting in their cars when the first shots were fired.

[Cboldt]

-- Most likely corporate was simply reciting Swanton's talking points that dominated the first few days' news reports. --

Waco Twin Peaks' managers dispute police claim they wouldn't help with security | Dallas Morning News | May 18, 2015

That one supports your line of thought.

"If what we're learning and what the police have said turns out to be true, that would clearly not uphold the standards of safety and security we operate under, and we would not allow a partner to be running a restaurant under our name," said spokesman Rick Van Warner.

The corporate offices firmed this up (got rid of the "if", and adopted the police line) in a later statement.

Twin Peaks sues to end Waco location's franchise agreement - WFAA - May 18, 2015

"Unfortunately the management team of the franchised restaurant in Waco chose to ignore the warnings and advice from both the police and our company, and did not uphold the high security standards we have in place to ensure everyone is safe at our restaurants," said Twin Peaks spokesman Rick Van Warner in a statement.

Additional reports at:

Twin Peaks revokes Waco franchise agreement after deadly biker shootings - Patrick Kulp - 2015-05-18
Twin Peaks Shooting PR Crisis - E.H. Anderson PR Agency - May 18, 2015

Stroman's criticism and the reactions of Twin Peaks local and the franchisor contain only generalities about the police requests. The DHS report is much more specific.

[Cboldt]

-- It certainly has bearing on the credibility of the source you cited to try and contradict the police statement. --

While it has bearing, it's still he said, she said. All your doing is picking Stroman's side, and claiming its true. I'll say again, the DPS report contradicts Stroman, and contradicts the franchisor. The claim is "refused to cooperate." What was the request that was rejected?

[Prolixus]

What multiple felonies do you think that they saw happening BEFORE the violent shootout?

You should click the waco keyword and read up on the event. There was a brawl before shooting occurred. A brawl means multiple assault-and-battery charges. Why were the Waco Police at the scene before any crime was committed? What were they expecting to happen? Did they ignore the commission of multiple felonies in anticipation of making a more important arrest?