Posted on 11/26/2015 11:27:55 AM PST by Kaslin
One of the most memorable moments of the November 10 Republican debate came when Florida Sen. Marco Rubio lamented the collapse of vocational training in America.
"For the life of me, I don't know why we stigmatize vocational education," Rubio said. "Welders make more money than philosophers. We need more welders than philosophers."
As soon as Rubio finished speaking, Twitter nearly exploded with comments praising Rubio's assessment and comments suggesting Rubio is misguided or flat-out lying for suggesting philosophers don't make as much money as welders.
Slate released what has become a widely used chart titled "Sorry, Marco Rubio. Philosophers Make Way More Money Than Welders Do." The chart showed philosophy and religion teachers average a salary of more than $70,000, whereas "Welders, Cutters, Solderers, and Brazers" earned just over $40,000.
Even Dana Perino, a Fox News contributor and the former press secretary for George W. Bush, criticized Rubio (albeit very nicely), saying on Twitter, "I have to say that I am a proponent of philosophy majors Tony Snow majored in philosophy. One of the best thinkers I've ever known."
On the surface, it looks as though Rubio overstated his case about the importance of vocational programs. However, a closer look at the arguments on both sides reveals there's much more to this story than many initially thought.
For starters, Slate and other critics point to the salaries of philosophy professors at post-secondary schools as evidence against Rubio's claim, but Rubio never said "philosophy professors"; he simply said "philosophers." Professors of any subject make, on average, more than welders, but the overwhelming majority of philosophy majors never actually become professors or even attend graduate school.
According to College Board, there are at least 950 colleges that allow students to major in philosophy. If we estimate, quite conservatively, that each of these colleges graduates five students who major in philosophy per year, there would be 4,750 philosophy graduates every year. This means over 10 years, there are (again, conservatively calculated) more than 47,000 philosophy graduates.
There are, however, only 23,000 jobs available for philosophy and religious teachers at post-secondary schools, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Even if we assume 70 percent of those jobs belong to philosophy instructors, rather than religious teachers, the data overwhelmingly suggest there are fewer than 17,000 jobs available for philosophy professors.
Because many professors never leave their jobs, there are likely very few jobs available for the thousands of philosophy majors who graduate each year. According to the HigherEd Jobs website, a popular site for current or aspiring professors seeking work, there are only 130 job postings for philosophy faculty out of the more than 18,000 faculty positions listed on the site.
It's true the median salary for philosophy professors is higher than the median salary for many welders ($63,630 vs. $36,300), but master welders can earn more than $90,000 per year, and the top 10 percent earned a median income of $56,130 in 2012.
Because there are more than 357,000 welding jobs in the United States, the data suggest there are actually more people earning close to $60,000 annually working as welders than as philosophy professors.
Perhaps even more importantly, many welding jobs come with very few training costs. Welding companies often pay to train prospective welders, while professors of philosophy have to attend a four-year college and then graduate school. Because many students incur tens of thousands of dollars, and in many cases more than $100,000, in student loan debt, the argument could easily be made that if an individual wants to earn a good salary, have low levels of debt, and be able to afford purchasing a home sooner rather later, welding is a better option than aiming to become a philosopher.
Contrary to his opponents' claims, Rubio's point was not that college degrees are useless or should be avoided, but rather that young people shouldn't feel college is the only way to obtain success. Instead of discouraging young people from entering fields such as plumbing or welding, Rubio suggests it should be encouraged, because welding and other important skilled labor positions can provide good wages without incurring huge amounts of debt. On that point, there is no disputing Rubio is right on the mark.
I think this is a Rubio promo piece under the guise of a controversy, but it is one that no one knows about. Still Rubio get to be projected a blue collar job creator by means of a defense against against big bad evil "opponents".
Betcha lots of those prissy college boys would faint if they got grease under their fingernails. It took a half-hour of scrubbing to get clean after a day of wrenching on cars and trucks as a line mechanic. I sure don’t miss doing that for a living...
Rubio is right that we need more welders than philosophers, and right that devaluing vocational education is a problem for America. It is a pity that he tried to make his point by using a false claim. Those with undergrad degrees in philosophy doubtless on average make less money than welders. Actual philosophers — the folks who make it through a Ph.D. and continue to do philosophy as university professors or ethics advisors to corporations or professional societies — however, make more money than welders.
I have long advocated America having polytechnic institutes — sort of trade schools plus, where one would learn a trade, for instance, welding along with the science behind it something about businesses where the skill you learn is used and a thin overlay of other courses that would suit one better to be a citizen in a democratic republic, rather than someone who just knows things related to one’s trade. The great lot of students who come to university not to be educated, but to “get a job” at the other end would be better served by polytechnics.
When I was in Grade School, late Fifties, quite a few Senior and Junior boys went to a different school in the afternoon. They wanted to be tool and die makers, etc. As soon as they graduated, they went to work at good jobs.
its not even an issue of which makes more money (philosophy or welding)
its simply that a lot of people would like to be welders, carpenters, plumbers, electricians, auto mechanics, roofers, airplane mechanics, computer technicians, and many more ‘trades’
(and our country needs nearly all of these trades, too)
AND YET.... many high schools have eliminated training or preparation for many or all of the trades!! its crazy!!!
bad for the children ... (ever wonder why there’s so much truancy and deliquency.. ? part of the reason is that there’s so little left in the schools that many kids want to learn ...or find interesting....so why attend?)
let’s get back to a more balanced educational system where we offer the kids a variety of subject matter
Weird, though. Almost everyone has a house. If they could take a class in home repairs, they would not have to do it at Home Deport.
The Germans have an apprentice system. Gets actually get to work in a reach auto shop, for instance. They do the work while I pay double because they are supervised by a master mechanic.
. . . but not as much as, say, NFL football players, since we are making ridiculous comparisons.
yes. the traditional German educational system for engineering also combines theoretical with practical=handson learning....
you are almost always certain that a graduate can do the job well
in USA, most of the engineering colleges have abandoned 90% of the handson learning, as one grad of the country’s leading engineering college put it... I can do operational calculus and explain semiconductor physics.... but they didn’t even teach me which end of a soldering iron to pick up (or that it needs to be plugged in)
so many grads of USA engineering schools CANNOT do the job well.... this is one of the reasons many corporations try to import foreign workers (yes, they do work for less money, but often they arrive here CAPABLE OF DOING THE WORK a lot better, too)
I had occasion to visit a VERY TOP TIER USA engineering college not that long ago.. .they still had an impressive older building filled up with engineering equipmnt (a hands on learning lab from maybe 30 years prior). It was locked up and eventually the university just knocked it down .... the students there get ZERO handson learning (except for plugging in some wires to connect things together in an impressive donated computer lab)
its such a limited education... its EXCELLENT for what it does but.... its so bookish.... so theoretical...and SO LACKING IN ANY PRACTICAL SKILL Learning Opportunities... that the grads just joke about (what else can they do) how incredibly incompetent they are at actually DOING so much engineering work in the Real World
we need to get back to a better balance in our educational system... yes, more like the traditional German system
just saying.....
I’ve learned a ton of things just watching. Patience is the key.
I reflect on the work of the Wright Brothers. Wilber the largely self-taught brains of the operation and Orville, a first rate technician. The way they did things should be a model for an engineering school. What is amazing is the way that Wilbur was able to look at the literature and discover that, so often, the literature gets it all wrong. God gavels these opposing thumbs for a reason. Werner von Braun had a similar experience, starting out as a young man he ends up being persuading Hitler of the need of the V-I, by opening up the vision of space travel. Give Hitler this much credit: he was open to such stuff. Von Braun had no way of testing except by doing. Failure after failure. Finally he put himself in danger by leaving his bunker and stood outside so he could observe a rocket in flight and see what they were doing wrong.
Next time someone at Slate needs a plumber, let him call a philosopher.
The last plumber that was in my house charged me $95 for walking through the door and $250 to clear out one pipe (he had to go on the roof to do it).
It’s true that Voc Ed has closed down in the schools - I have a metal stool in my classroom that once belonged to the wood shop - long closed since the 80s. (because kids couldn’t read)
Here we are almost 30 year later, Voc Ed gone, replaced by reading labs... and my 11th graders still come in reading between 3rd and 6th grade level.
I have long maintained that those who design cars, for example, should be required to actually spend time working on the products of their engineering expertise.
Broken clocks, blind hogs and Cuban cabana boys.
yes indeed
and the folks who design cars should be required to drive the very cars they design
and the folks who write Windows program should be required to use it, too!
About 75% of the general high school graduates (about 600 a year graduated) went on to college most of them a local two year community college.
Of those in community college, only about 20% got a two year degree, the rest dropped out.
Of the ones that went directy to a 4 year college you could count the graduates each year, on two hands with a finger or two left over.
Of the students from our vocational classes, over 70% either worked in the electronics (or their vocational) career field or went into the military and had vocational training related specialties there. (We had to measure that as one of the state standards for getting Perkins money).
The educational culture from the teaching level up through the district offices was to treat every student's training as college prep. This failed a huge number of each year's graduating class and condemned them to unskilled jobs for the rest of their lives, unless they finally bootstrapped themselves out of the cycle.
This is true. But hey, it was Rubio who started the ridiculous comparison game.
Rubio is right on this one...
We need philosophers as well as welders, actually we need philosopher welders, philosopher plumbers, and so on. We need people who can think and question as well as they can perform their skilled craft. I think it’s a shame we have separated the two.
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