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AMERICANS SQUEEZE GERMAN SALIENT TIGHTER; PATTON’S ADVANCE CUTS ITS WAIST TO 13 MILES (12/30/44)
Microfilm-New York Times archives, Monterey Public Library | 12/30/44 | Drew Middleton, John MacCormac, Clifton Daniel, A.C. Sedgwick, Dana Adams Schmidt, George Horne

Posted on 12/30/2014 4:19:43 AM PST by Homer_J_Simpson

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TOPICS: Extended News
KEYWORDS: history; milhist; realtime; worldwarii
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To: colorado tanker

But as I’ve previously pointed out, what Monty once proposed in November made sense; to divide the front into northern and southern sectors, with the Ardennes being the dividing line. It made no sense for Bradely’s 12th AG to straddle the Ardennes and split its effort into northern attacks toward Cologne and southern attacks in Alsace. Bradley should have commanded 9th and 1st Armies in the north and Devers 3rd and 7th in the south.

But Monty made the suggestion, with the corollary that he command all the troops in the north so that idea was DOA at SHAEF. And Ike Despised Devers, so he was never going to give him greater authority in the south.

Because of personality conflicts, a sound strategic decision wasn’t made.


21 posted on 12/30/2014 12:56:25 PM PST by henkster (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Mexican Fliers to Fight


A little info here:

http://erickr0.tripod.com/


22 posted on 12/30/2014 12:58:40 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

Mexican Fliers to Fight


A little info here:

http://erickr0.tripod.com/


23 posted on 12/30/2014 1:03:29 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: Homer_J_Simpson

At IWO JIMA on the night of the 29th-30th 9 B-24’s attacked individually at 45 minute intervals with fragmentation bombs. ON the 30th 14 B-24’s dropeed 28 tons on the airfields with results being largely unobserved.

Nimitz Graybook


I have an interest in Iwo Jima, with my uncle from the 5th Marines injured there. First general purpose bombs from 50 b29’s, then delayed fuse and now fragmentation bombs. Is no damage being done or are the japs rebuilding the airfield?


24 posted on 12/30/2014 1:10:13 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: henkster

You have won me over to your point of view on the North-South split of armies. But you can see from today’s post that Ike had no respect at all for Devers’ opinions.


25 posted on 12/30/2014 1:18:50 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker; occamrzr06
The Ike-Monty feud is well known. The Ike-Devers feud is far less well known. occamrzr06's post from "Guns at Last Light" makes reference to the Devers issue, as well as the November command conference where Ike denied Devers permission to cross the Rhine. It's one of the few places where you find it. I previously posted an excerpt from "Riviera to the Rhine," the U.S. Army's Official History of Devers' 6th Army Group regarding the November conference.

Ike successfully did to Devers what he could not do to Monty. He erased him from the history books. Ike couldn't do that to Monty because Monty was a British National Hero. Devers was a more junior commander, relegated to a backwater command that was deliberately kept a backwater command.

Anyone care to tell me how many books they've read about the operations of Devers' 6th Army Group? Anyone? Anyone? (This is where I expect to hear crickets). No, there isn't much written about 6th AG. "Riviera to the Rhine," the official history of 6th AG, was not published until 1993. All of the other official histories from the ETO (Cross Channel Attack, 1950, Breakout and Pursuit, 1961, The Siegfried Line Campaign, 1963, The Lorraine Campaign, 1950, The Battle of the Bulge, 1965, The Last Offensive, 1973), were all written when most of the major participants were still alive. In 1993, when "Riviera to the Rhine" was published, all of the participants were long dead and it had been 20 years since the most recent history had been published.

Here's another tidbit. The foreword to "The Siegfried Line Campaign" has this paragraph:

The story of the sweep from Normandy to the German frontier has been told in the already published Breakout and Pursuit. The present volume relates the experiences of the First and Ninth U.S. Armies, the First Allied Airborne Army, and those American units which fought under British and Canadian command, on the northern flank of the battle front that stretched across the face of Europe from the Netherlands to the Mediterranean. The operations of the Third U.S. Army in the center, from mid-September through mid-December, have been recounted in The Lorraine Campaign; those of the Seventh U.S. Army on the south will be told in The Riviera to the Rhine, a volume in preparation.

It says "7th Army," not "6th Army Group." Admittedly, this is a U.S. Official History series, so you would not expect them to tell the story of 1st French Army. However, 6th AG was a United States Army formation. Seems to me that it was shunned here. You have to wonder, why did it take so long to complete the last volume? Was there a deliberate suppression of the history of Devers' command?

26 posted on 12/30/2014 2:06:22 PM PST by henkster (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: PeterPrinciple
The airfield was not integral to the Japanese defenses, which were a system of mutually supporting caves, bunkers, tunnels and gun emplacements. The pre-invasion bombing was ineffective in degrading these defenses.

The code word for the operation was Detachment. Nimitz sometimes refers to it in his Graybook.

27 posted on 12/30/2014 2:17:48 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker

David Colley wrote a book about it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/23/opinion/23colley.html?_r=0


28 posted on 12/30/2014 2:34:56 PM PST by occamrzr06 (A great life is but a series of dogs!)
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To: occamrzr06

Great stuff! Thanks!


29 posted on 12/30/2014 3:34:12 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: colorado tanker

The airfield was not integral to the Japanese defenses, which were a system of mutually supporting caves, bunkers, tunnels and gun emplacements. The pre-invasion bombing was ineffective in degrading these defenses.
The code word for the operation was Detachment. Nimitz sometimes refers to it in his Graybook.


I disagree, the airfield HAS been the target because it was from IWO the b29 air base was bombed. Every report comments about the airfield.

It is only AFTER the assault do we learn of how well they were dug in.


30 posted on 12/30/2014 3:34:48 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: occamrzr06

I’ll have to put that on my reading list.


31 posted on 12/30/2014 3:51:03 PM PST by henkster (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: henkster

You have to wonder, why did it take so long to complete the last volume? Was there a deliberate suppression of the history of Devers’ command?


I was only dimly aware of this but you are right, there is not much info.

A couple of thoughts came to mind, it may have been suppression or lack of promotion? Because it was a combined effort neither the French or US took ownership? I don’t get the idea that Devers was a self promoter?

Ike seemed pretty strong on his broad front concept. With all the strong personalities would be better to keep them equal in success? Pushing monty, holding the others back?


32 posted on 12/30/2014 3:58:39 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: henkster

Riviera to the Rhine

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA-E-Riviera/index.html#index

Is this the reference you referred to?


33 posted on 12/30/2014 4:10:59 PM PST by PeterPrinciple (Thinking Caps are no longer being issued but there must be a warehouse full of them somewhere.)
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To: occamrzr06; henkster
Interestingly, the preface and afterword to Riviera to the Rhine are silent about why it took so long to write the book other than the admission that historians just ignored that campaign. I do like this as a nice summing up of 6th Army Group's acheivements:

The operations of the Seventh Army and the 6th Army Group constituted one of the most successful series of campaigns during World War II. Although opposed by many Allied political and military leaders from its inception and largely ignored by historians of the war, the campaign in southern France, including the ANVIL landings, the seizure of Toulon and Marseille, and the battles for the lower Rhone valley, set the stage for the more significant ventures to the north. The subsequent pursuit north up the Rhone and Saone valleys, the drive northeast of Lyon to the Belfort Gap, the difficult Vosges campaign that followed, and the ultimate conquest of Alsace were critical to Allied military fortunes on the Western Front. Perhaps the greatest contribution of the southern invasion was placing a third Allied army group--one with two army headquarters, three corps, and the equivalent of ten combat divisions--with its own independent supply lines, in northeastern France at a time when the two northern Allied army groups were stretched to the limit in almost every way. Whether a third army group could have been supported by the Atlantic ports without an exceedingly lengthy struggle is doubtful, and without such a force Bradley's 12th Army Group would have had great difficulty holding the additional frontage from the Luneville-Saverne area to the Swiss border. With the added strength of German units retreating unscathed from the Atlantic and Mediterranean, the German counterattack against the Third Army's exposed southern flank in September 1944 might have been far more effective, drastically retarding the initial Allied drive to the German border in the north. More important, Allied strength in northeastern France would have been much diluted without the forces of the 6th Army Group, and the Ardennes counteroffensive--or something similar--might have had a better chance of success or, at the very least, done more damage. In such a case the starting date for the final invasion of Germany might have been greatly delayed with unforeseen consequences.

34 posted on 12/30/2014 4:28:24 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: PeterPrinciple

Yes, that’s the reference.


35 posted on 12/30/2014 4:31:23 PM PST by henkster (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: PeterPrinciple

I don’t think Ike was fostering competition or playing rivals off each other (which was one Stalin’s favorite pastimes with his generals when he wasn’t purging them). I think the broad front strategy was a result of Ike’s aversion to significant risk. He believed that by attacking exposed flanks, the Germans possesed the ability to isolate an exposed element of his army and destroy it. They had shown that ability in Russia, and the Ardennes Offensive showed they had the means. So in hindsight, Ike’s strategy was probably the correct one.


36 posted on 12/30/2014 5:26:17 PM PST by henkster (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: henkster
So in hindsight, Ike’s strategy was probably the correct one.

LOL, you really do need to read "Decision at Strasbourg : Ike's strategic mistake to halt the Sixth Army Group at the Rhine in 1944"

37 posted on 12/30/2014 6:59:37 PM PST by occamrzr06 (A great life is but a series of dogs!)
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To: henkster
Ike’s strategy was probably the correct one

Your explanation is very satisfying, in that from the largest possible overview you've distilled the chief elements into a believable and understandable essence, one that puts nearly everything into perspective. Many thanks. (Your oft-demonstrated ability to do that is very valuable, whether you're limiting yourself to using it only here or in broader applications.)

38 posted on 12/30/2014 7:01:06 PM PST by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God IS, and (2) God IS GOOD?)
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To: occamrzr06; colorado tanker
While I do think Ike sould have allowed Devers to establish a bridgehead over the Rhine for future operations, crossing the Upper Rhine at Strasbourg offered limited prospects. The terrain east of the Rhine was rugged and forested. Operations there would have been the Hurtgen Forest on a larger scale. The bridgehead would have been useful in a drive north to pry the Germans off the river, but that would only be effective once Patton cleared the approaches to the river.

Ike based his strategy off of his directive from the orders he recieved; his "mission statement:"

You will enter the continent of Europe and, in conjunction with the other United Nations, undertake operations aimed at the heart of Germany and the destruction of her armed forces.

Going off into the Schwarzwald didn't accomplish that mission. Ike needed to concentrate on the approaches to the Ruhr. The Germans would have to commit their armed forces to defend it, so that's where he had to undertake operations to destroy them. But I do agree that Ike did not treat Devers with the respect his position merited, and deliberately avoided taking advantage of opprtunities on that front.

39 posted on 12/30/2014 7:23:12 PM PST by henkster (Do I really need a sarcasm tag?)
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To: henkster
There are two parts to Ike's orders: the destruction of her armed forces was the primary intention of his orders.

OK, now I have to read "Decisions at Strasbourg".

40 posted on 12/30/2014 7:39:29 PM PST by occamrzr06 (A great life is but a series of dogs!)
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