Posted on 12/08/2014 7:43:12 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
Although [Jonathan] Gruber has sought to play down his remarks, the danger to the law from the unclear language is still very real: The section in question mentions exchanges "established by the state," but not the federal government. One former staffer involved in drafting the legislation attributes the vague wording to a rushed process in the Senate: "When there'’s a rapid process, sometimes things aren't worded as precisely as you might like when you have more time. I see it more as, you didn't find all your cross-references."
That explanation, however, makes Michael Carvin laugh out loud.
"That’s another way of saying, 'WE DIDN'T READ IT,' " he said. "The question is what Congress enacted, not what staffers, quote unquote, 'thought.' "
Will Jonathan Gruber Topple Obamacare? - David Nather, Politico, December 7, 2014
"But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy."
- Nancy Pelosi, March 9, 2010, address to the 75th anniversary Legislative Conference for the National Association of Counties (NACo)
youtube.com/watch?v=2uQvCpNx1O0
It is always amusing to watch the contortions liberals put themselves through when things arent going well for them. At the end of the dismal Carter years, liberal intellectuals blamed their failures on the defects of the presidency itself, claiming the office wasnt powerful enough for modern times. This argument was necessary because Democrats enjoyed large majorities in Congress and couldnt blame their failures on obstructionist Republicans, unlike today. So our Constitution itself had to be blamed for the gridlock that prevents progress.
Liberalism has been schizophrenic about democracy for about a century, alternating between deploring anti-majoritarian features of our system such as the electoral college and the filibuster, or maligning populist democratic majoritarianism when it delivers uncongenial results, such as Californias Proposition 13 or last falls midterm election beat-down of the Democratic Partyan election that increasingly looks to be a harbinger of more wipeouts ahead at the hands of ingrate voters. So right now liberals are in one of their periodic anti-democratic moods, most remarkably expressed by North Carolina Governor Beverly Perdues thought experiment last week about suspending congressional elections for two years so that Congress can help this country recover.
The heart of the matter is that liberals are incapable of questioning their presumption of being the force for Progress.Shes hardly an isolated example of this strain of liberal thought. President Obamas first director of the Office of Management and Budget, Peter Orszag, took to the pages of The New Republic recently to make the case that we need less democracy, saying we need to counter the gridlock of our political institutions by making them a bit less democratic. And need we even mention Thomas Friedmans periodic China is awesome columns envying Beijing precisely because of its authoritarian capacities? On the other hand, Harold Meyerson argues in the latest cover story of the American Prospect, Did the Founders Screw Up? that The problem isnt that were too democratic. Its that were not democratic enough. Following the spinning liberal compass on democracy can give you a headache.
Liberalism has been unable to decide whether it is for or against more democracy for nearly a century now, ever since it underwent a radical transformation from a creed believing that advancing the cause of individual liberty meant limiting government power and protecting individual rights into the creed we know today of believing that larger and more powerful government is the primary means of securing the realization of individual liberty. None of the liberal complaints about gridlock are new; Progressives like Woodrow Wilson deplored the separation of powers and other limiting features of the Founding as obsolete years before he tried to ignore them as president.
None of the liberal complaints about gridlock are new; Progressives like Woodrow Wilson deplored the separation of powers and other limiting features of the Founding.At the core of Progressivism, as it was called then and is again today, was the view that more and more of the business of individuals and society was best supervised by expert administrators sealed off from the transient pressures of popular politics. So at the same time that Progressives championed more democracy in the form of populist initiatives, referendum, and recalls, they also developed a theory deeply anti-democratic in its implications. As the famous phrase from Saint-Simon had it, the government of men is to be replaced by the administration of things. But this undermines the very basis of democratic self-rule. No one better typifies the incoherence of Progressivism on this point than Woodrow Wilson, an enthusiastic theorist of the modern administrative state who couldnt clearly express why we would still need to have elections in the future. In Wilsons mind, elections would become an expression of some kind of watery, Rousseauian general will, but certainly not change specific policies or the nature of administrative government.
The heart of the matter is that liberals are incapable of questioning their presumption of being the force for Progress, and as such always repair behind arguments about process when their policies are unpopular. Meyerson gives away the game when he writes that reform is necessary to enable decisive legislative action and sweeping social change, because apparently sweeping social change is what government must be doing at all times.
Heres an interesting thought experiment to try out on a people-loving liberal: If we had a national referendum, and a majority voted to abolish the Environmental Protection Agency, would it be legitimate in the eyes of Progressives? If you think the liberal compass on democracy is spinning fast now. . .
Steven F. Hayward is a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. His article, The Liberal Misappropriation of a Conservative President [Ronald Reagan]
The comments that really have Democrats blowing cartoon smoke out of their ears:
(Will Jonathan Gruber Topple Obamacare? - David Nather, Politico, December 7, 2014)
Whats important to remember politically about this is if youre a state and you dont set up an exchange, that means your citizens dont get their tax credits but your citizens still pay the taxes that support this bill. So youre essentially saying [to] your citizens youre going to pay all the taxes to help all the other states in the country. I hope that thats a blatant enough political reality that states will get their act together and realize there are billions of dollars at stake here in setting up these exchanges. Yes, so these health insurance exchanges will be these new shopping places and theyll be the place that people go to get their subsidies for health insurance. In the law it says if the states dont provide them the federal backstop will. The federal government has been sort of slow in putting up its backstop in part because I think they want to sort of squeeze the states to do it. - Jonathan Gruber at Noblis - January 18, 2012 | youtube.com/watch?v=W-tjUirYgj8
September 30, 2014 | Benjamin Weingarten | The Blaze
Ludwig von Mises, a leader of the free market Austrian School of Economics, wrote perhaps most passionately about his aversion to socialism and reverence for capitalism having witnessed the rise of the Nazis in Germany, and consequently fleeing to America.
In honor of his belated Sept. 29th birthday, below is one of his most insightful essays “The Dictatorial, Anti-democratic and Socialist Character of Interventionism,” excerpted from his 1951 book, “Socialism,” which lays bare the truth about economic interventionism, and in the process refutes practically every major argument you will ever encounter from a progressive.
Many advocates of interventionism are bewildered when one tells them that in recommending interventionism they themselves are fostering anti-democratic and dictatorial tendencies and the establishment of totalitarian socialism. They protest that they are sincere believers and opposed to tyranny and socialism. What they aim at is only the improvement of the conditions of the poor. They say that they are driven by considerations of social justice, and favour a fairer distribution of income precisely because they are intent upon preserving capitalism and its political corollary or superstructure, viz., democratic government.
What these people fail to realize is that the various measures they suggest are not capable of bringing about the beneficial results aimed at. On the contrary they produce a state of affairs which from the point of view of their advocates is worse than the previous state which they were designed to alter. If the government, faced with this failure of its first intervention, is not prepared to undo its interference with the market and to return to a free economy, it must add to its first measure more and more regulations and restrictions. Proceeding step by step on this way it finally reaches a point in which all economic freedom of individuals has disappeared. Then socialism of the German pattern, the Zwangswirtschaft of the Nazis, emerges.
Mises shows how this process of one intervention begetting another until a market economy no longer exists unfolds, by examining perhaps the most benign possible scenario: government efforts to provide milk to children from poor families.
If the government wants to make it possible for poor parents to give more milk to their children, it must buy milk at the market price and sell it to those poor people with a loss at a cheaper rate; the loss may be covered from the means collected by taxation. But if the government simply fixes the price of milk at a lower rate than the market, the results obtained will be contrary to the aims of the government. The marginal producers will, in order to avoid losses, go out of the business of producing and selling milk. There will be less milk available for the consumers, not more. This outcome is contrary to the government’s intentions. The government interfered because it considered milk as a vital necessity. It did not want to restrict its supply.
Now the government has to face the alternative: either to refrain from any endeavours to control prices, or to add to its first measure a second one, i.e., to fix the prices of the factors of production necessary for the production of milk. Then the same story repeats itself on a remoter plane: the government has again to fix the prices of the factors of production necessary for the production of those factors of production which are needed for the production of milk. Thus the government has to go further and further, fixing the prices of all the factors of productionboth human (labour) and materialand forcing every entrepreneur and every worker to continue work at these prices and wages. No branch of production can be omitted from this all-round fixing of prices and wages and this general order to continue production. If some branches of production were left free, the result would be a shifting of capital and labour to them and a corresponding fall of the supply of the goods whose prices the government had fixed. However, it is precisely these goods which the government considers as especially important for the satisfaction of the needs of the masses.
Price control cannot work satisfactorily within a market economy.
But when this state of all-round control of business is achieved, the market economy has been replaced by a system of planned economy, by socialism. Of course, this is not the socialism of immediate state management of every plant by the government as in Russia, but the socialism of the German or Nazi pattern.
Many people were fascinated by the alleged success of German price control. They said: You have only to be as brutal and ruthless as the Nazis and you will succeed in controlling prices. What these people, eager to fight Nazism by adopting its methods, did not see was that the Nazis did not enforce price control within a market society, but they established a full socialist system, a totalitarian commonwealth.
Price control is contrary to purpose if it is limited to some commodities only. It cannot work satisfactorily within a market economy. If the government does not draw from this failure the conclusion that it must abandon all attempts to control prices, it must go further and further until it substitutes socialist all-round planning for the market economy.
This system of government control contrasts with the democratic free market in which the people are sovereign:
In the market economy the consumers are supreme. Their buying and their abstention from buying ultimately determine what the entrepreneurs produce and in what quantity and quality. It determines directly the prices of the consumers’ goods and indirectly the prices of all producers’ goods, viz., labour and material factors of production. It determines the emergence of profits and losses and the formation of the rate of interest. It determines every individual’s income. The focal point of the market economy is the market, i.e., the process of the formation of commodity prices, wage rates and interest rates and their derivatives, profits and losses. It makes all men in their capacity as producers responsible to the consumers. This dependence is direct with entrepreneurs, capitalists, farmers and professional men, and indirect with people working for salaries and wages. The market adjusts the efforts of all those engaged in supplying the needs of the consumers to the wishes of those for whom they produce, the consumers. It subjects production to consumption.
The market is a democracy in which every penny gives a right to vote
The market is a democracy in which every penny gives a right to vote. It is true that the various individuals have not the same power to vote. The richer man casts more ballots than the poorer fellow. But to be rich and to earn a higher income is, in the market economy, already the outcome of a previous election. The only means to acquire wealth and to preserve it, in a market economy not adulterated by government-made privileges and restrictions, is to serve the consumers in the best and cheapest way. Capitalists and landowners who fail in this regard suffer losses. If they do not change their procedure, they lose their wealth and become poor. It is consumers who make poor people rich and rich people poor. It is the consumers who fix the wages of a movie star and an opera singer at a higher level than those of a welder or an accountant.

Every individual is free to disagree with the outcome of an election campaign or of the market process. But in a democracy he has no other means to alter things than persuasion. If a man were to say: “I do not like the mayor elected by majority vote; therefore I ask the government to replace him by the man I prefer,” one would hardly call him a democrat. But if the same claims are raised with regard to the market, most people are too dull to discover the dictatorial aspirations involved.
The consumers have made their choices and determined the income of the shoe manufacturer, the movie star and the welder. Who is Professor X to arrogate to himself the privilege of overthrowing their decision? If he were not a potential dictator, he would not ask the government to interfere. He would try to persuade his fellow-citizens to increase their demand for the products of the welders and to reduce their demand for shoes and pictures.
But what shall we think of the statesman who interferes by compulsion in order to raise the price of cotton above the level it would reach on the free market? What the interventionist aims at is the substitution of police pressure for the choice of the consumers. All this talk: the state should do this or that, ultimately means: the police should force consumers to behave otherwise than they would behave spontaneously. In such proposals as: let us raise farm prices, let us raise wage rates, let us lower profits, let us curtail the salaries of executives, the us ultimately refers to the police. Yet the authors of these projects protest that they are planning for freedom and industrial democracy.
What the interventionist aims at is substitution of police pressure for the choice of consumers
The argument that the free market is anarchic and requires government interference for Mises is a canard, which obfuscates from the truth that the debate is really about who should plan the people or the politicians:
The dilemma is not between automatic forces and planned action. It is between the democratic process of the market, in which every individual has his share, and the exclusive rule of a dictatorial body. Whatever people do in the market economy, is the execution of their own plans. In this sense every human action means planning. What those calling themselves planners advocate is not the substitution of planned action for letting things go. It is the substitution of the planner’s own plan for the plans of his fellow-men. The planner is a potential dictator who wants to deprive all other people of the power to plan and act according to their own plans. He aims at one thing only: the exclusive absolute pre-eminence of his own plan.
The planner is a potential dictator who wants to deprive all other people of the power to plan
Those who invoke science to justify their interventions are to Mises particularly dangerous. Moreover, government intervention does not advance democracy, but rather subverts it:
The planners pretend that their plans are scientific and that there cannot be disagreement with regard to them among well-intentioned and decent people. However, there is no such thing as a scientific ought. Science is competent to establish what is. It can never dictate what ought to be and what ends people should aim at. It is a fact that men disagree in their value judgments. It is insolent to arrogate to oneself the right to overrule the plans of other people and to force them to submit to the plan of the planner. Whose plan should be executed? The plan of the CIO or those of any other group? The plan of Trotsky or that of Stalin? The plan of Hitler or that of Strasser?
When people were committed to the idea that in the field of religion only one plan must be adopted, bloody wars resulted. With the acknowledgment of the principle of religious freedom these wars ceased. The market economy safeguards peaceful economic co-operation because it does not use force upon the economic plans of the citizens. If one master plan is to be substituted for the plans of each citizen, endless fighting must emerge. Those who disagree with the dictator’s plan have no other means to carry on than to defeat the despot by force of arms.
It is an illusion to believe that a system of planned socialism could be operated according to democratic methods of government. Democracy is inextricably linked with capitalism. It cannot exist where there is planning. Let us refer to the words of the most eminent of the contemporary advocates of socialism. Professor Harold Laski declared that the attainment of power by the British Labour Party in the normal parliamentary fashion must result in a radical transformation of parliamentary government. A socialist administration needs “guarantees” that its work of transformation would not be “disrupted” by repeal in event of its defeat at the polls. Therefore the suspension of the Constitution is “inevitable.” How pleased would Charles I and George III have been if they had known the books of Professor Laski!
Democracy is inextricably linked with capitalism. It cannot exist where there is planning.
In the Victorian age, when John Stuart Mill wrote his essay On Liberty, such views as those held by Professor Laski, Mr. and Mrs. Webb and Mr. Crowther were called reactionary. Today they are called “progressive” and “liberal.” On the other hand people who oppose the suspension of parliamentary government and of the freedom of speech and the press and the establishment of inquisition are scorned as “reactionaries,” as “economic royalists” and as “Fascists.”
Those interventionists who consider interventionism as a method of bringing about full socialism step by step are at least consistent. If the measures adopted fail to achieve the beneficial results expected and end in disaster, they ask for more and more government interference until the government has taken over the direction of all economic activities. But those interventionists who look at interventionism as a means of improving capitalism and thereby preserving it are utterly confused.
As for the argument that capitalism is at the heart of our economic woes:
In the eyes of these people all the undesired and undesirable effects of government interference with business are caused by capitalism. The very fact that a governmental measure has brought about a state of affairs which they dislike is for them a justification of further measures. They fail, for instance, to realize that the role monopolistic schemes play in our time is the effect of government interference such as tariffs and patents. They advocate government action for the prevention of monopoly. One could hardly imagine a more unrealistic idea. For the governments whom they ask to fight monopoly are the same governments who are devoted to the principle of monopoly. Thus, the American New Deal Government embarked upon a thorough-going monopolistic organization of every branch of American business, by the NRA, and aimed at organizing American farming as a vast monopolistic scheme, restricting farm output for the sake of substituting monopoly prices for the lower market prices. It was a party to various international commodity control agreements the undisguised aim of which was to establish international monopolies of various commodities. The same is true of all other governments. The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was also a party to some of these intergovernmental monopolistic conventions. Its repugnance for collaboration with the capitalistic countries was not so great as to cause it to miss any opportunity for fostering monopoly.
The programme of this self-contradictory interventionism is dictatorship, supposedly to make people free. But the liberty its supporters advocate is liberty to do the “right” things, i.e., the things they themselves want to be done. They are not only ignorant of the economic problem involved. They lack the faculty of logical thinking.
[T]his self-contradictory interventionism is dictatorship, supposedly to make people free.
The most absurd justification of interventionism is provided by those who look upon the conflict between capitalism and socialism as if it were a contest over the distribution of income. Why should not the propertied classes be more compliant? Why should they not accord to the poor workers a part of their ample revenues? Why should they oppose the government’s design to raise the share of the underprivileged by decreeing minimum wage rates and maximum prices and by cutting profits and interest rates down to a “fairer” level? Pliability in such matters, they say, would take the wind from the sails of the radical revolutionaries and preserve capitalism. The worst enemies of capitalism, they say, are those intransigent doctrinaires whose excessive advocacy of economic freedom, of laisser-faire and Manchesterism renders vain all attempts to come to a compromise with the claims of labour. These adamant reactionaries are alone responsible for the bitterness of contemporary party strife and the implacable hatred it generates. What is needed is the substitution of a constructive programme for the purely negative attitude of the economic royalists. And, of course, “constructive” is in the eyes of these people only interventionism.
However, this mode of reasoning is entirely vicious. It takes for granted that the various measures of government interference with business will attain those beneficial results which their advocates expect from them. It blithely disregards all that economics says about their futility in attaining the ends sought, and their unavoidable and undesirable consequences. The question is not whether minimum wage rates are fair or unfair, but whether or not they bring about unemployment of a part of those eager to work. By calling these measures just, the interventionist does not refute the objections raised against their expediency by the economists. He merely displays ignorance of the question at issue.
Mises concludes his essay with an argument with a call for honesty in this age-long debate between freedom and totalitarianism:
The conflict between capitalism and socialism is not a contest between two groups of claimants concerning the size of the portions to be allotted to each of them out of a definite supply of goods. It is a dispute concerning what system of social organization best serves human welfare. Those fighting socialism do not reject socialism because they envy the workers the benefits they (the workers) could allegedly derive from the socialist mode of production. They fight socialism precisely because they are convinced that it would harm the masses in reducing them to the status of poor serfs entirely at the mercy of irresponsible dictators.
In this conflict of opinions everybody must make up his mind and take a definite stand. Everybody must side either with the advocates of economic freedom or with those of totalitarian socialism. One cannot evade this dilemma by adopting an allegedly middle-of-the-road position, namely interventionism. For interventionism is neither a middle way nor a compromise between capitalism and socialism. It is a third system. It is a system the absurdity and futility of which is agreed upon not only by all economists but even by the Marxians.
[I]nterventionism is neither a middle way nor a compromise between capitalism and socialism
There is no such thing as an “excessive” advocacy of economic freedom. On the one hand, production can be directed by the efforts of each individual to adjust his conduct so as to fill the most urgent wants of the consumers in the most appropriate way. This is the market economy. On the other hand, production can be directed by authoritarian decree. If these decrees concern only some isolated items of the economic structure, they fail to attain the ends sought, and their own advocates do not like their outcome. If they come up to all-round regimentation, they mean totalitarian socialism.
Men must choose between the market economy and socialism. The state can preserve the market economy in protecting life, health and private property against violent or fraudulent aggression; or it can itself control the conduct of all production activities. Some agency must determine what should be produced. If it is not the consumers by means of demand and supply on the market, it must be the government by compulsion.
"In the law it says if the states dont provide them the federal backstop will. The federal government has been sort of slow in putting up its backstop in part because I think they want to sort of squeeze the states to do it". - Jonathan Gruber at Noblis - January 18, 2012
...seems to say that if the states don't set up the exchanges, that a "federal backstop" will kick in for those who live in such states. Doesn't that simply mean that the Feds will pay the subsidies if the states don't? Is that actually in the ACA?
In 7 words:
The cure is worse than the disease.
Yes, there may be some surprises in Halbig.
This quote by Gruber that you referenced:
“In the law it says if the states dont provide them the federal backstop will. The federal government has been sort of slow in putting up its backstop in part because I think they want to sort of squeeze the states to do it”. - Jonathan Gruber at Noblis - January 18, 2012
...seems to say that if the states don’t set up the exchanges, that a “federal backstop” will kick in for those who live in such states. Doesn’t that simply mean that the Feds will pay the subsidies if the states don’t? Is that actually in the ACA?
This quote by Gruber that you referenced:
In the law it says if the states dont provide them the federal backstop will. The federal government has been sort of slow in putting up its backstop in part because I think they want to sort of squeeze the states to do it. - Jonathan Gruber at Noblis - January 18, 2012
...seems to say that if the states dont set up the exchanges, that a federal backstop will kick in for those who live in such states. Doesnt that simply mean that the Feds will pay the subsidies if the states dont? Is that actually in the ACA?
It would be much more convincing if Gruber actually quoted the law instead of saying ”In the law it states...” :^)
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