Posted on 04/09/2014 12:45:26 PM PDT by tcrlaf
Twitter Hashtag #Donetsk has gotten busy in the last hour, especially after this Tweet from a UK blogger stating that the media was gathering, on rumor that the storming of the Donetsk Barricades was imminent.
UStream live feed from the Donetsk Barricades. http://www.ustream.tv/channel/artem77?utm_campaign=t.co&utm_source=ustre.am%2F1b876&utm_medium=social&utm_content=20140409121554 Has been up for a while, but down the last 5 minutes.
Several recent tweets about "Blackwater mercenaries being seen around/in Donetsk.
Euromaidan PR tweets: "Rossiya 24 TV channel illegally broadcast by Donetsk administration captured by separatists."
Acting President Turchynov orders to take Donetsk RSA under state security
Numerous Twitter reports and Videos of Ukrainian troops, including heavy artillery and tanks, escorted by police, moving near Donetsk, at last report about 10k outside of the city. Local Civilians are impeding them by walking in the way, or having cars 'breakdown" on the roads.
“And that is why this is going to end in a bloody civil war, folks...”
No, a bloody “civil war” will happen because the Russians corrupted the Ukrainian government - leading to its removal by the people; an act which was ratified by the Ukrainian parliament - and the Russians are now actively trying to divide the country into pieces to annex some of them.
Bloody civil wars are always horrible but sometimes necessary if the right side wins in the end.
You do know that he was beaten by Neo-Nazi’s?
Supposed to be Svoboda. The ones that McCain hung around - as in their leader, Oleh?
We need to stay out of this.
This beat-down fight was (according to what I’ve read) Ukrainain commies vs Neo-Nazi’s. Ergo, again, good reason why we should stay out of this semi-regional conflict.
We are $17 trillion in debt, we are BROKE, and most Americans are war-weary.
“If they think they are a separate people *and* are willing to fight”
And therein lies the rub, eh?
Other than the violent Right-Sector mobs, Ukrainians in the effected areas haven’t shown any willingness to stand up for their own nation, despite orders and screams from Kiev to do so.
LOTS of factors are at work here.
“We need to stay out of this.”
BINGO....
Define “right side”....
“King George III, is that you?”
King George violated the rights of those living in America. The pro-Russian forces in Ukraine violated the rights of Ukrainians in their own homeland. The Ukrainian people have every right to overthrow a pro-Russian corrupt government, replace it with one more acceptable, and then assert their national authority in every corner of their own country. It’s THEIR country.
“Fomenting armed revolution in a foreign country is the very definition of starting “it”.”
Kinda like what the US State Department did in Kiev?
“Define “right side”....”
The Ukrainians are the right side in a “civil war” with Russians and pro-Russians in Ukraine. Clear enough?
“and then assert their national authority in every corner of their own country.”
That is a BIG part of the problem. The new powers in Kiev aren’t able to influence events much outside of the capital,it seems.
And those UKRAINIANS who don’t agree with the new regime are being beaten in the streets.
Using your own logic, if the UKRAINIANS outside of Kiev decide that the coup government is illegitimate, don’t they also have the right to throw them out, or cast off their chains?
And we are $17 trillion in debt, we are broke, war-weary, and we may get sucked into a situation involving a smei-regional spat with Ukrainian Communists vs Ukranian Nazis.
Didn’t we come close to getting sucked into siding with very bad Syrian elements vs Assad?
Putin is a thug and a monster, no doubt. In the end, like I told someone else, this will probably end with Crimea & Ukraine split down the middle, E. Ukraine going to Russia, Moldava joining with Russia, an that’s the end of it.
Any more than that from Putin and Russia will be wiped out economically with economic isolation, banking isolation, all remaining assets frozen - and then the oligarchs inside and outside of Russia would yank Putin from running Russia.
“Define “right side”....”
“The Ukrainians are the right side in a “civil war” with Russians and pro-Russians in Ukraine. Clear enough?”
So, in your opinion, the Russian-speaking UKRAINIANS have no right to a part in determining their future?
It is exactly that kind of an attitude that causes civil wars, as history teaches us.
Despite not being German, Czechoslovakia allowed itself to be carved up out of existence without firing a shot. If Ukrainians decide not to fight, then that's certainly their prerogative. If they do, then we should provide them with the means to do so, including emptying the mothballed Soviet-era arsenals of the ex-Warsaw Pact countries, and giving them all the fuel they need to create veritable armies of Russian widows and orphans.
Yeah, it’s their country -— so we need to stay out of it.
Thank you for agreeing with me.
The ultimate point of my earlier post...
“That is a BIG part of the problem. The new powers in Kiev aren’t able to influence events much outside of the capital,it seems.”
False. The new government has no problem in the Western part of Ukraine. The problem lies in areas being undermined by the Russians - Eastern Ukraine and Crimea. Has that not occurred to you yet?
“And those UKRAINIANS who don’t agree with the new regime are being beaten in the streets.”
False. PRO-RUSSIANS who want Ukraine to lose its independence have been punished for their disloyalty to the country to which they hold citizenship. We would do no less here in a similar situation.
“Using your own logic, if the UKRAINIANS outside of Kiev decide that the coup government is illegitimate, don’t they also have the right to throw them out, or cast off their chains?”
There was no coup - as stressed by the actions of the Ukrainian parliament itself: https://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html
And no, those who are pro-Russians or Russians should have exactly no say over the future of Ukraine. It’s Ukraine.
There is a bigger geo-political game being played here.
Ukraine has been in crisis for a long time. They haven’t paid a dime for any Russian gas since January 2013. Russia has been sending Ukraine billions to prop up the economy. Public Corruption is a way of life, and on such a scale that it would make an Oligarch blush.
When Obama got slapped down by Putin over Syria, they saw destabilizing Ukraine as a way of getting back at him, thus the US involvement and funding for the NGO’s, and Ukrainian radicals.
Putin moving to take advantage of a situation handed to him on a silver platter by the Obama Administration’s hubris and incompetence shouldn’t have been a surprise to anybody.
“they need to create veritable armies of Russian widows and orphans.”
And an awful lot of their own, as well.
Easy to call for violence when it isn’t you and yours doing the dying, isn’t it?
“So, in your opinion, the Russian-speaking UKRAINIANS have no right to a part in determining their future?”
Almost all Ukrainians speak Russian. It was taught in schools. Those who are mono-lingual Russian speaking really aren’t Ukrainians culturally. And no, they should not be allowed by those Ukrainians who are actually Ukrainian in culture to destroy Ukraine’s independence. I don’t believe Mexicans, Mexican-Americans, Chicanos, or Latinos, or whatever term you want to use should be able to seize control of the Southwest either while you, by your logic, must believe that is okay.
“It is exactly that kind of an attitude that causes civil wars, as history teaches us.”
False. It would never be a “civil war”. That’s why I keep putting it in quotes. It would be a Russian vs. Ukrainian war fought entirely in Ukraine by Ukrainians defending their own country according to internationally recognized borders from a combination of Russian Federation forces, Russian fifth columnists, and Ukrainian turncoats. In other words, that “civil war” would be a lot like South Vietnam’s “civil war”. Everybody on the left pretended that the Viet Cong were really just peasant rebels rather than a force controlled lock, stock and barrel by the NVA and the communist party of North Vietnam. I make no such mistake.
Actually, it would be a lot easier to stand by and nothing as the Russians pursue their dreams of universal empire. The problem is that Russian dreams and the pacifistic dream of eternal brotherhood among men will eventually come to blows. It would be advantageous for the free world to help make Russia pay an unbearable price and thereby extinguish that dream just as surely as the German dream of Deutschland über alles has been erased from the German vocabulary, at least for a time.
“Yeah, it’s their country -— so we need to stay out of it.”
It is their country - and we should help them keep it because a more humble Russia is better for us in the long run.
“Thank you for agreeing with me.”
I agree with you on 50% of what you said. That’s a start.
“The ultimate point of my earlier post...”
fair enough.
The only arms used during the Kiev protests were the ones used to gun down close to a hundred protesters. Note that the Russian stooge Yanukovich attempted to abolish the two linchpins of a free society - freedom of speech and freedom of assembly. The protesters were well within their rights to participate in armed revolution, never mind unarmed protests.
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