What's really happening in the Ukraine.

many | 4-7-14 | Dangus

[dangus]

I don't claim to be able to peer into Putin's soul. I don't even claim to be an expert on Russia or the Ukraine. But if we're to have a chance of dealing intelligently in Eastern Europe, we should at least have a mastery of the basic facts. And that's where media sources, left, right and center have made complete fools of themselves. So without wanting to in any way defend the indefensible Yanukovich:

If the Russians hadn't been in Crimea, there's no way the Crimeans would've voted to join Russia.

Crimea has pretty much always been Russia since its first civilization, except for various times when the Turks had conquered it. It has never been part of the Ukraine, until 1992. It was not even part of the anti-communist Ukrainian Republic of the early 1920s. It only split from Russia when the Ukraine went democratic, but the Soviets still ran Russia. It voted in 1992 to become a fully autonomous region affiliated with the Ukraine, but then the Ukraine unilaterally revoked that autonomy. [From 1965 until 1991, it was part of the Ukrainian SSR].

The Russians want Crimea because of oil!

There is no oil in Crimea. There is no oil pipeline. The largest ports in the Ukraine are not in Crimea.

The Russians want Crimea because it is so wealthy!

Crimea possesses some potentially wonderful tourist beaches. But it is not wealthy. At all. Crimea's one of the poorest Oblasts in a poor nation; most of the wealth of the Ukraine is concentrated in Kiev.

It's 1930s Germany all over again!

Maybe. But not because of the Russians. When the mob took over Kiev, they installed several neo-Nazis to key posts.

That neo-Nazi talk is just Russian propaganda!

It refers to the Socialist-Nationalist party, also known as Svoboda, which idolizes the Banderites. The Banderites tried to prove to Adolf Hitler that they'd be valuable allies by killing an entire region's population of 80,000 Polish people. But at least the Banderites have never been ties to the Nazis' hatred of Jews. Svoboda blames Jews for ruling Russia.

Surely the HEADS of the Maidan aren't Nazis, though!

Julia Tymoshenko, the once and probably future Prime Minister of the Ukraine, was recorded in a phone conversation that the only way to establish secure rule over the Ukraine would be to kill all Russians.

No-one really wants to secede; it's just the Russians stirring trouble.

Did you miss the part about the Tymoshenko wanting all Russians killed? Was it just hot-blooded rhetoric? Perhaps, but after mobs overthrew the people they voted for, you can hardly blame the citizens of Donetsk Oblast for being wary when their leader calls for their genocide.

The Russians really just want a land bridge to Crimea.

Russia does not need a land bridge to Crimea. In fact, it would be insane to travel hundreds and hundreds of miles all the way around the Sea of Azov, instead of taking a two-mile planned bridge across the placid Straits of Kerch.

But the Russians have been causing trouble in the Ukraine all along! They poisoned President Yushenko!

My only point in bringing the following up is that the initial narrative is likely false, not to cast blame on other parties; It's really too shrouded in conspiracy to know what happened. But actually, Victor Yushenko himself believes he was poisoned by pro-EU former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko's ally, Davyd Zhvanya. His initial diagnosis was refuted by a commission established by his own legislature. Why would Tymoshenko, from his own party, want Yushenko poisoned? His poisoning helped his election; once dead, she would lead the country.

No-one would want to join Russia! It is a godless, dying society.

Russia's birth rate is up 50% in the last few years. The abortion rate is down 80%. The life expectancy has gained 5 years in just 8 years. And more than 80% of Russians now identify as Christians (Yes, church attendance is in the single digits, but church attendance isn't seen as necessary as it is among Catholics and high-church Protestants.) It's the West which is now dying out.

No-one would want to join Russia! The Oligarchs control all the income!

The top 10% in Russia earn 33% of the income. In America, they control roughly half of the income. Family-run micro-farms produce 58% of the agricultural output. The GDP has increased by a factor of 10 since the post-Soviet economic collapse.

Putin doesn't allow opposition parties!

The opposition parties hold 47% of the seats in the Duma.

Putin is a Eurasianist! He's a neo-Stalinist! He's a Socialist!

The main opposition parties are Zhirinovski's Eurasianists, the communists, and the Nationalist-Socialists. Putin regularly campaigns against socialism, economic centralization, and government control in a way few but the most ballsy Westerners do. And THAT'S why socialist Lebedev, whose newspapers' commentary dominate Western reporting on Russia, hates him.

[dangus]

Six key cabinet positions are held by the Swoboda party, which is openly neo-Nazi. Here’s an article after the first two posts were filled:

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/02/24/Ukraine-Appoints-New-Posts-in-Government-Includes-Controversial-Svoboda-Party

Here’s another source with an update as the number reached six:
http://peoplesworld.org/ukrainian-ultra-rightists-given-major-cabinet-posts-in-government/

[FreeReign]

As a starting point I would recommend reading the following protest timeline. Link

[FreeReign]

Six key cabinet positions are held by the Swoboda party, which is openly neo-Nazi.

I don't think that's correct.

The Social-National Party of Ukraine was the openly Neo-Nazi party. They disbanded about 15? year ago. Their support in Ukraine was about one-half of one percent at that time.

From that disbanded party, Svoboda Party sprung out. They publicly dis-avowed Neo-Nazism. They now claim to be a nationalist party and their support has risen to about 10% of the voting publicly.

Of course there is no telling what may slither out from some of the former SNPU party members who now belong to Svoboda. We've seen at least a couple of anti-semitic quotes from Svoboda Party members.

But in a similar manner there are Russians who are members of several political parties in Ukraine who think Stalin is a hero.

Stalin Statue Erected in Ukraine Amid Protests

That's the same Stalin who starved to death 7 - 10 million ethnic Ukrainians.

[dangus]

I read it, and learned several new things, actually. Was there any specific point you were trying to support?

[Paul R.]

Oh, give us a break. Take just one item, the accusation that Tymoshenko said that 8 million ethnic Russians in Ukraine “must be killed with nuclear weapons”. This is such a laughable farce of an edited tape that it is hard to keep a straight face. Ukraine has no nukes (anymore.) Furthermore, it’s not even possible to achieve that objective, without killing, oh, maybe 20 million other Ukrainians. But then, I would not expect you to have actually studied ethnic distributions in Ukraine beyond the crude maps RT puts up, OR the prevailing winds, for that matter.

[dangus]

Those people who raised the Stalin statue are in WESTERN Ukraine. There are almost no Russians near where the Stalin statue was erected. “Anti-government” as of Feb 3, when the article was written, refers to the supporters of the MAIDAN; Yanukovich’s regime was still present.

[dangus]

>> From that disbanded party, Svoboda Party sprung out. They publicly dis-avowed Neo-Nazism. <<

Not sure what you mean by “publicly disavowing Neo-Nazism.” The Socialist-Nationalist party was outlawed as Neo-Nazi, so they had to disavow Hitler. But they openly call for the extermination of Jews, the establishment of a socialist-nationalist government, and literally worship (as in construct alters and shrines) to the Banderites. So, since the Banderites WERE Nazis...

[dfwgator]

Hitler disavowed Bandera first, the Nazis had no use for them.

There were also Russians (General Vlasov), that will willing to fight alongside the Nazis, but also, Hitler declined their help.

[Paul R.]

Show us the wording in the treaties. One of the reasons treaties are hammered out over months or years of negotiation is to be precise and leave no room for subjective interpretation of “spirit” or other such silliness.

[1rudeboy]

Do you consider gunmen over-running parliament after the President has fled for his life a democratic vote?

As long as the gunmen are shooting from Parliament, it's all good, right?

[Paul R.]

Again, your level of understanding of who's where in Ukraine seems to have come from a RT map. Further, from the article:

The installation of the monument in an unspecified location in the Volhynia region was attended by local members of Ukraine’s Communist Party, representatives of the Russian and Belarusian communities, members of the local Anti-Fascist Committee and other public organizations...

Commenting on the event, the Communist Party officials said Stalin was the leader who united modern Ukraine and liberated the world from fascist forces.

The head of the Anti-Fascist Committee of Volhynia called on the communists “to rise in defense of the homeland from fascism” as Ukraine is facing a “neo-Nazi uprising.”

[Cicero]

Putin did not start this mess.

Of course. Those Russian troops that crossed the border simply "lost their way."

As I said. There were several years of preparations for the rioting. Then there were several weeks of rioting and violence. Then the elected leader of the country was deposed. And THEN Putin came in, a couple of weeks later.

I'm not judging sides. I'm just saying that Soros and his pals STARTED it, and gave Putin an excuse to react to what they did first. It was really, really stupid. You don't start that kind of trouble unless you are in a position to follow up on it.

[caww]

Thank you Dangus, for a good summary of Ukraine and the situation there.

Just as when western media was reporting on Egypt, and for reasons we knew then and now, so too with Russia and Ukraine we find the facts more than blurred behind a systematic and controlled media.......and yet people complain about Putin's control of the Press!

I mentioned prior that hackers had discovered the demand made that all western media must carry their news about Ukraine with an ANTI-Russian position. The media war is very real and heavily ladened with false reporting not seen nor recognized on the ground...and there are those on the ground equally placed to bring the most sensational that would work against Russia. I saw this constantly in Egypts revolution....and frankly I was stunned at the news agencies I thought would never "play" the news as they did.

[FreeReign]

As I said. There were several years of preparations for the rioting. Then there were several weeks of rioting and violence. Then the elected leader of the country was deposed. And THEN Putin came in, a couple of weeks later.

Your description of the events is nonsense.

Here's a pretty good detailed timeline of the events at Euromaidan. If you have any real specific comments about the events you should try to base it this or some other information that might be relevant.

Government violence and government crack downs on demonstrations that were peaceful are also part of the story.

And BTW, Putin has no business entering Ukraine. It's seems that you are making the excuse that he does.

[FreeReign]

Those people who raised the Stalin statue are in WESTERN Ukraine. There are almost no Russians near where the Stalin statue was erected.

Those were ethnic Russians in Western Ukrainian that raised that statue and I'm sure I could more more incidents.

[dangus]

It’s pretty lame when someone commits genocide against his own people in a desperate attempt to appeal to Nazis, and even the Nazis won’t have him. But the fact that the Banderites WANTED to be Nazis and believed in the Nazi cause, even after being sent to a concentration camp should speak volumes.

[dangus]

Ah, that’s the reason for the timeline. You really should read up on George Soros and his role.

[dfwgator]

Of course they made for good death camp guards.

[dangus]

To be clear, though: I mention Soros and the EU’s role in the Maidan to legitimize Russia’s actions vis-à-vis the Budapest treaty, not to legitimize Yanukovich.

[FreeReign]

So, since the Banderites WERE Nazis...

Banderas was a Ukrainian nationalist who was a defender of Ukraine against the Russians who with Stalin had starved to death 7 - 10 million ethnic Ukrainians.

Banderas then welcomed the Nazis as liberators only to find out that the Nazis wanted to exterminate ethnic Ukrainians. Along with the 1 million Jews who were killed by the Nazis in Ukraine, the Nazis also exterminated 5 million ethnic Ukrainians. Banderas himself was sent off to a Nazi concentration camp.

Beyond all that Banderas was also responsible for the repugnant ethnic cleansing in W. Ukraine of Poles.

Fast forward to a decade ago and you have Putin and Russia ethnic cleansing ethnic Georgian Christians in S. Ossetia and Abkazia.

That's a more detailed picture for you.