Posted on 04/07/2014 1:02:54 PM PDT by dangus
I don't claim to be able to peer into Putin's soul. I don't even claim to be an expert on Russia or the Ukraine. But if we're to have a chance of dealing intelligently in Eastern Europe, we should at least have a mastery of the basic facts. And that's where media sources, left, right and center have made complete fools of themselves. So without wanting to in any way defend the indefensible Yanukovich:
If the Russians hadn't been in Crimea, there's no way the Crimeans would've voted to join Russia.
Crimea has pretty much always been Russia since its first civilization, except for various times when the Turks had conquered it. It has never been part of the Ukraine, until 1992. It was not even part of the anti-communist Ukrainian Republic of the early 1920s. It only split from Russia when the Ukraine went democratic, but the Soviets still ran Russia. It voted in 1992 to become a fully autonomous region affiliated with the Ukraine, but then the Ukraine unilaterally revoked that autonomy. [From 1965 until 1991, it was part of the Ukrainian SSR].
The Russians want Crimea because of oil!
There is no oil in Crimea. There is no oil pipeline. The largest ports in the Ukraine are not in Crimea.
The Russians want Crimea because it is so wealthy!
Crimea possesses some potentially wonderful tourist beaches. But it is not wealthy. At all. Crimea's one of the poorest Oblasts in a poor nation; most of the wealth of the Ukraine is concentrated in Kiev.
It's 1930s Germany all over again!
Maybe. But not because of the Russians. When the mob took over Kiev, they installed several neo-Nazis to key posts.
That neo-Nazi talk is just Russian propaganda!
It refers to the Socialist-Nationalist party, also known as Svoboda, which idolizes the Banderites. The Banderites tried to prove to Adolf Hitler that they'd be valuable allies by killing an entire region's population of 80,000 Polish people. But at least the Banderites have never been ties to the Nazis' hatred of Jews. Svoboda blames Jews for ruling Russia.
Surely the HEADS of the Maidan aren't Nazis, though!
Julia Tymoshenko, the once and probably future Prime Minister of the Ukraine, was recorded in a phone conversation that the only way to establish secure rule over the Ukraine would be to kill all Russians.
No-one really wants to secede; it's just the Russians stirring trouble.
Did you miss the part about the Tymoshenko wanting all Russians killed? Was it just hot-blooded rhetoric? Perhaps, but after mobs overthrew the people they voted for, you can hardly blame the citizens of Donetsk Oblast for being wary when their leader calls for their genocide.
The Russians really just want a land bridge to Crimea.
Russia does not need a land bridge to Crimea. In fact, it would be insane to travel hundreds and hundreds of miles all the way around the Sea of Azov, instead of taking a two-mile planned bridge across the placid Straits of Kerch.
But the Russians have been causing trouble in the Ukraine all along! They poisoned President Yushenko!
My only point in bringing the following up is that the initial narrative is likely false, not to cast blame on other parties; It's really too shrouded in conspiracy to know what happened. But actually, Victor Yushenko himself believes he was poisoned by pro-EU former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko's ally, Davyd Zhvanya. His initial diagnosis was refuted by a commission established by his own legislature. Why would Tymoshenko, from his own party, want Yushenko poisoned? His poisoning helped his election; once dead, she would lead the country.
No-one would want to join Russia! It is a godless, dying society.
Russia's birth rate is up 50% in the last few years. The abortion rate is down 80%. The life expectancy has gained 5 years in just 8 years. And more than 80% of Russians now identify as Christians (Yes, church attendance is in the single digits, but church attendance isn't seen as necessary as it is among Catholics and high-church Protestants.) It's the West which is now dying out.
No-one would want to join Russia! The Oligarchs control all the income!
The top 10% in Russia earn 33% of the income. In America, they control roughly half of the income. Family-run micro-farms produce 58% of the agricultural output. The GDP has increased by a factor of 10 since the post-Soviet economic collapse.
Putin doesn't allow opposition parties!
The opposition parties hold 47% of the seats in the Duma.
Putin is a Eurasianist! He's a neo-Stalinist! He's a Socialist!
The main opposition parties are Zhirinovski's Eurasianists, the communists, and the Nationalist-Socialists. Putin regularly campaigns against socialism, economic centralization, and government control in a way few but the most ballsy Westerners do. And THAT'S why socialist Lebedev, whose newspapers' commentary dominate Western reporting on Russia, hates him.
Svoboda Party and the Right Block are very Neo-Nazi.
*****************
I found this the other night while researching just how deeply some Ukrainians vested in the Nazis. They were able to raise an entire division, not for the Wehrmacht, but for the Waffen SS - 14th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Ukrainian).
In early August of last year there were some festivities to honor and celebrate those happy days. From that well known Russian propaganda source, yahoo.
http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-divided-over-wwii-legacy-100702056.html
Russian neo-Nazis came to help celebrate the nostalgic moment. A good time seems to have been had by all.
What a toxic, tangled mess.
I'll take this one. Let's look at what you posted:
[Question] Surely the HEADS of the Maidan aren't Nazis, though!You imply she is a Nazi, and it is debatable, despite your "encyclopedic" knowledge, and those "mainstream AND 'conservative'" authors who suggest otherwise.
[Answer] Julia Tymoshenko, the once and probably future Prime Minister of the Ukraine, was recorded in a phone conversation that the only way to establish secure rule over the Ukraine would be to kill all Russians.
Your opinion means nothing to me. Nothing has changed.
Sergey Mironov, the leader of A Just Russia Party, is a buddy of Putin.
The Communist Party of Russia is not an opposition party and part of Ruling Mafia, even if Zyuganov and Putin are not best buds. Saying otherwise is completely ignorant of the facts on the ground.
“Ratify our actions or die!” you must be confused because I think that is the United Russia Party slogan.
Yes,Russia has the highest GDP per capita income ever. It is in a middle income country trap. It depends and concentrates efforst on exporting raw materials while letting Russia’s manufacturing and engineering capabilities atrophy. Russia is a boom/bust country depending on global price of its raw materials like Saudi Arabia or Brazil. To become healthy it needs to dramatically increase its birth rate but it can not dramatically increase its oil reserve base.
But I congratulate Putin for not being as stupid as the General Secretaries of the Communist Party. It is like being the smartest kid on the short bus.
Ukraine and events from the Arab Spring, along with the idea of nation building shows us how unique and fragile the American Republic was and why we need to fight like hell to restore it.
I didn’t imply she was a Nazi. I implied a contradiction to the notion that she surely is NOT a Nazi. I then explicitly proceeded to suggest she may NOT be a Nazi (something lost when you took MY quote out of context), but that the citizens of Donetsk may nonetheless be uneasy being ruled by someone who stated she wanted them all dead.
I’ll admit, I wouldn’t even know HOW to source something which was not actually stated.
You forget one major player/culprit, the EU. The European Union probably spent just as much money if not more than the US during the last years to support and build up pro-EU sentiment in Ukraine.
(I’ll try and post some links later, but in the meantime anyone interested can search “Ukraine” at the blog Eureferendum.com )
>> Sergey Mironov, the leader of A Just Russia Party, is a buddy of Putin. The Communist Party of Russia is not an opposition party and part of Ruling Mafia, even if Zyuganov and Putin are not best buds. Saying otherwise is completely ignorant of the facts on the ground. <<
I do not mean this rhetorically: I would love to know more of what you are talking about. As I note, I cannot know what is in Putin’s heart... and it is admittedly enigmatic. Since the Communist Party opposes everything Putin does, since they violently protested his re-election, since their puppet minion controls (Lebedev) controls half of the papers in the UK and incessantly writes the most ridiculous trash about Putin, I find it easier to believe that the Republican Party are just fake opponents for the Democrats. But the notion that they are led by a patsy is very intriguing to me.
>> “Ratify our actions or die!” you must be confused because I think that is the United Russia Party slogan. <<
More over-heated rhetoric which makes it hard to take you seriously.
>>Yes,Russia has the highest GDP per capita income ever. It is in a middle income country trap. It depends and concentrates efforst on exporting raw materials while letting Russia’s manufacturing and engineering capabilities atrophy. Russia is a boom/bust country depending on global price of its raw materials like Saudi Arabia or Brazil. To become healthy it needs to dramatically increase its birth rate but it can not dramatically increase its oil reserve base. <<
This part, I absolutely agree on. But Putin HAS dramatically increased Russia’s birth rate, by an astounding 50%. (Any more direct actions would get a lot of husbands very jealous!) And the manufacturing base HAS grown. This criticism comes from a country with a collapsing birth rate, and shrinking manufacturing base.
It’s important to keep in mind that the cessationists are not necessarily pro-Putin
The “secessionists” have first class weaponry and equipment. That equipment didn’t fall off a cabbage truck, FRiend.
Good post and a nice summation of the situation.
Not only that, but the EU actions violate the spirit of treaties to keep the West out of Eastern Europe. (No, they’re technically not NATO forces, but then technically, no-one ever ratified the Budapest Agreement. So yes, the “spirit” is what matters here.)
Hey, while we’re at it:
*IF* Zyuganov and Mironov *WERE* just Putin’s buddies, successfully confounding leftist impulses, wouldn’t that be a GOOD thing? Or at least better than in America, where the GOP are simply the Democrats’/MSM’s suckups confounding conservatives?
Disagree with some of it.
Some are straw man criticisms.
You left a lot out.
Strawman type of argument.
Of course there is no way to know for sure how an honest vote in the Crimea would have turned out. That's why an honest vote was needed.
An honest vote did not occur.
The Russians want Crimea because it is so wealthy!
I've not seen one person here on Free Republic Make either of those two claims.
And they divert attention away from real criticisms.
And of course "no one really wants to secede" is another absurd strawamn type of argument anybody could knock down.
The real issue of course is how many want to secede and how many don't.
>> You left a lot out. <<
I absolutely left many important points out. I was correcting the most obviously wrong things I have come across. I am NOT an expert in russian affairs, and would truly love to find some decent information, but have found so few sources which don’t state such obvious falsehoods.
>> Some are straw man criticisms. <<
I have seen every single one of these in print.
>> Disagree with some of it. <<
Contradictions are most certainly welcome.
Most all countries have Neo-Nazis, at least in Europe. It's arguable that Russia might have the most.
A mob didn't take over Kiev. A mob didn't install Neo-Nazis in key posts.
Do you consider gunmen over-running parliament after the President has fled for his life a democratic vote?
Holding the election with Russian soldiers on the ground is plainly problemmatic, but it’s not like this was a close vote.
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