Posted on 02/20/2014 3:05:32 AM PST by iowamark
I stumbled upon a Christian author I was not familiar with the other day and saw that he had written from a host of secular publications about faith. From CNN to National Journal to the Huffington Post to USA Today to the Atlantic to others — these are publications that tend to be hostile to people of traditional, orthodox Christian faith. When a Christian author is routinely published in those publications and cited as a reasonable evangelical voice by those publications, I have to think he or she is really useful idiots of Baal.
From Rob Bell to Rachel Held Evans to Donald Miller to Jim Wallis to Joel Osteen and more, these people seem to think that, if they even share the gospel (as opposed to the prosperity gospel), the gospel can be shared without every offending anyone. If only Christians would not offend people they could woo people to Christ. Truth be told, some evangelicals can be far more confrontational than need be. But, likewise, the gospel is not inoffensive. These people who think the gospel can be sold to everyone without ever offending anyone are committed more to their own house brand than to Jesus and, in so doing, prop up Baal, the god of worldly conformity, more than Christ.
The gospel offends many people. Many people will die this very day somewhere in the world because of the gospel. Frankly, I think some of these people are themselves offended by the gospel. They look at the Bible as a self-help book and redact all the stuff they themselves do not agree with. They focus on social justice Jesus and not the Jesus who said
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
They have convinced themselves Jesus really would have an opinion on a government healthcare program, but never really get into Jesus’s views on damnation, sin, and salvation.
This goes also to my concern about a lot of mega churches. I have friends who are pastors of mega churches. I have friends who attend mega churches. But I think some of the church industrial complex starts building a brand and the brand is more “Six Flags Over Jesus”, as I tend to call a lot of mega churches, and less Jesus. They focus on franchises and revenue stream and weekly attendance. To do that, Jesus can rarely be offensive. More so, the spirit in the attendees can often not be matured.
By that I mean a lot of these churches are so focused on upping the baptism count that they focus solely on “come to Jesus” and never really describe what coming to Jesus entails or how a Christian, once a Christian, grows in faith. So the people in the church run the risk of being spiritually immature or not convicted of their salvation. Here’s hint: often embracing the gospel turns people’s lives upside down and, from a worldly perspective, things end badly for them.
Christ said we should enter through the narrow gate. A lot of the media’s favorite voices on Christendom preach that the gate is as deep and wide as possible for all comers. That’s simply not true. There is only one way. There is only one path. There is only one savior. All truly are welcome. But that one path offends so many not all want to be welcomed.
John 3:10-12 lays out pretty well the three reasons people will not embrace Christ: (v.10) they do not understand the gospel; (v.11) they refuse to receive the gospel; or (v.12) they do not believe the gospel. Many of these useful idiots for Baal sell a gospel stripped of its full meaning and commitment. They should be commended for wanting all comers to come, but need to be cautioned that not all comers will come. They go all Jesus all the time and quickly strip him of masculinity, godliness, justice, righteousness, power, and the ability to save. They try to sand it down so no one can reject it, but often what winds up getting accepted isn’t the real gospel, but a wordily version of an emo, weepy Jesus who can’t throw a punch that people created and not the real Jesus who will one day return on a white horse, with a sword, to judge the quick and the dead.
Too many of these people, often hipster prophets, make people comfortable in their sin while trying to sell Jesus. One comfortable in his sin rarely sees the need to embrace one who will extricate him from his sin. These peddlers of pop Christianity are useful idiots for Baal because they claim their faith in Christ without ever making anyone uncomfortable in their here and now. Christ made people uncomfortable.
As a friend noted this passage from Bonhoeffer last night in email:
“The messengers of Jesus will be hated to the end of time. They will be blamed for all the division which rend cities and homes. Jesus and his disciples will be condemned on all sides for undermining family life, and for leading the nation astray; they will be called crazy fanatics and disturbers of the peace.”
— Dietrich Bonhoeffer, “The Cost of Discipleship,” 1937.
The useful idiots of Baal are not willing to go along for that ride. They’d rather their Jesus bake cakes for gay weddings.
Thank you. You drive right into one of the things in the back of my mind when I discuss this stuff. I didn’t become a Christian until I was 29. I know how I thought before I became a Christian. That person deserved the justice of a just God. That justice is the Ecclesiastes life: Eat and drink and enjoy the fruits of your labor as a NATURAL MAN, not unlike an animal, and then, though man was made for an eternal relationship with God, you, as one who is lost, is denied that opportunity. And that is, in fact justice. There is no requirement to suffer horribly for all eternity. Though even that statement contradicts my perception of eternity regarding time and its passage.
Thank you so very much for those beautiful Scriptures and for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
Interesting side note here regarding, 'Benjamin'. He was the second son to Rachel and Jacob. And right off the bat in Matthew 2:18 after God sent Joseph and Mary off to Egypt because the baby killer Herod was offended and commanded all the children in Bethlehem, and in the coasts, from two years old and under to be killed. (Satan works overtime.)
Matthew 2:18 (Paul would have known what "Jeremy the prophet" had foretold in Jeremiah 31:15, but the whole chapter would now be the 'Gospel'.
18 "In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not."
Not what? Jeremiah 31 explains, and Christ is in all of the 'who' that was even Written of and about by Jeremiah. And those who claim the 'law' is no longer in effect are deceived.
Like I said above a side note regarding the heritage/lineage of Paul and what he is saying in Romans 11:1.
Romans 11:2 God hath not cast away His people which He *foreknew* (little predestination lingo planted again by Paul) Wot ye not what the Scripture saith of Elias?
(This would be Elijah who along with Moses the lawgiver were shown to the disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration. An interesting side note, which must mean something to Christians of any time.)
back to Romans 11:2 how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
3 "Lord, they have killed Thy prophets, and digged down Thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life."
4 BUT what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal." (Quoted from IKings 19:10-18, and now part of the Gospel.)
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
What does this mean to Christians this day? Grace was alive and well way back in Elijah's time?
6 And if by grace, then it is no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. BUT if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it,
and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, "God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see and ears that they should not hear";) unto this day. (Quoting Isaiah 29:10)
9And David saith, "Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always,"
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to *provoke* them to jealousy.
It is far less important what we want/preach, but rather what God has foretold/forewarned would be.
Oh, one more side note, the devil is the only named entity that has been judge to 'hell'/extinction and he is said to be destroyed from within, as though he never existed. Ezekiel 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick;
therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.''"
Paul tells us in Hebrews 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Those that choose 'death' are going to get just that, death, as if they never existed. There will not be the wailing and moaning for eternity for those that love God to be reminded of evil.
The immortal spirit of Apollyon is not in a place of darkness and chains only to be released at some future date because he’s now served his time, so why is he separated from us today? Why is he released in Revelation Chapter 9? Why is Satan not cast into the lake of fire at the same time as the beast and false prophet, not until 1000 years later?
There are principalities and powers held until the final disposition of the legal ownership of the Earth is worked through under the Laws and Ordinances, that is, of complete Holiness provided in the Earth as a mechanism that once established though Israel in the fallen Earth allowed for God to then insert himself into the flesh, to become a kinsman of Adam, to become a man, to make a way where there was no way, to redeem us under those same Holy laws that brought him to us, and yet those laws in the flesh required the shedding of innocent blood,
I understand we have many spirit-filled believers here with strong convictions, set in their opinions,
But to those still wondering, eternal torment (to believers) is a topic that seems to me to be of less importance to achieve a sound knowledge of than the fact of what is about to transpire here shortly in the flesh, but also because of that, perhaps it is a good time to consider,
That is knowing the lateness of the hour we’re in with the wrath of God about to be poured out on this physical Earth - for breaking the everlasting covenant (when this world divides Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria) bringing with it the return of Jesus to claim his inheritance (with the day of vengeance) coming as our Kinsman Redeemer with the Jubilee per Isaiah 63.
With that knowledge, then how much more or less are the workings toward immortal spirits with complete knowledge of the truth, rejecting it with regard to the vengeance and rightful judgement and retribution of a Holy God whose ways are not our ways, and whose thoughts are not our thoughts,
“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; “ 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9
In Revelation Chapter 9, we’re told there would be those that would ‘seek death and not be able to find it, that would desire to die and death would flee from them.’ I believe its referring to those that expect death to be all they have to answer for in their unaccountable life of unbelief. They live in a world where they have everything they could ever want, and when it finally does end, are expecting nothing, this is all there is then blissful nothingness. But as the end of the age unfolds in front of them, they will know enough, or have heard enough, that when those days of vengeance do arrive, they will see death flee from them and their hoped for annihilation no longer to be found,
Jesus became flesh and dwelt among us, to save us from this fate,
When Jesus was looking over Jerusalem and was overcome with sorrow, and said ‘how often I would have gathered you together but you would not’ he was overcome with emotion, knowing the wrath that would be poured out upon this same generation, because the people of that very day did not know the time of their visitation. Their house (Israel, Judea, Samaria, Jerusalem and the Temple) was left (to them) desolate, and then the diaspora until the regathering at the time of the end, until today, until our day,
The communication Jesus recounted between Lazarus and the rich man was not a parable,
Parables were used so that ‘hearing’ they (unbelieving Israel) ‘would hear not, neither would they understand’
Because if Israel had understood in their unbelief, they would’ve been judged even more harshly for not knowing the time of their visitation,
Parables were used so only those of the Kingdom, born of his spirit with the comforter providing illumination could understand, some are difficult to understand even then, but it was not given to them to know,
There is nothing at all mystifying or to be misunderstood (in any age, or flesh or spirit) to Jew or gentile about the rich man asking Abraham and Lazarus to warn his relatives not to come to this place where he is in torment. With the response being, they have the Law of Moses and the prophets. And yet today we have an even more sure witness of the Jubilee of the Gospel, how much more then are we to be convicted in our unbelief to not go to judgement uncovered, without the pardon he freely provided to as many as would receive it,
Wrath and judgement are coming to this world first and then God will resolve all things in Heaven and to each of us will be given our accounting,
If the Lord told a story of a man who died and was in torments in Hell (Lk. 16:19-33) - and which would be science fiction if annihilationism is true, but which the Lord never used - and warned me it would be better off to pluck my eye out rather than to go to a place where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched, (Mk. 9:43-48) into the furnace of fire where they would be weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, (Mt. 8:12; 13:42,50) and be cast into everlasting punishment in the same place the devil would, who will be tormented day and night forever, (Mt. 25:41,46; 20:10) and be tormented and with the smoke of my everlasting torment going up forever, Rv. 14:10,11) then i would believe that He wanted me to understand this as eternal torment. Simple as that.
And since Jesus talked of the wheat and tares and the tares being burned up in other passages (and in my plain language the analogy clearly means destroyed as most people mean it),
Luke has it, "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable." (Luke 3:17)
The word "up" is not there in Mt. 3:12 either, and while katakaiō, for "burned" normally conveys burned up, yet just as the wicked, "shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power," (2 Thessalonians 1:9) for spiritual things are not destroyed, so this can denote ongoing destruction. The fact is that their fire is not being quenched, as it has an ongoing purpose, and that transgressors and of the sinners "shall both burn together, and none shall quench." (Is. 1:28,31; 66:24)
Moreover, the smoke of their torment does not cease, indicating ongoing destruction, for the laws of physics do not apply in the spiritual realm.
If the Lord told a story of a man who died and was in torments in Hell (Lk. 16:19-33)
Here:
http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html
And if you had been a Jew living at that time you would have interpreted that story completely differently than we interpret it today. This is actually true of a LOT of the bible. Sometimes we need to stop listening to our teachers and get back to studying the word on our own.
Come to think of it, that was an issue in Jesus’ day...
Good post. I also like your “as if they never existed” meme. It’s also how I see it.
I have a 75 minute commute. This morning I used about half of it to listen to romans again. I was flabergasted at just how often Paul talked about the fate of those that are not Christ’s and over and over again used the word “death”. In the same scripture he even talked about the plain language of Christ’s message. He NEVER mentioned eternal suffering or torture. Just death. Over and over and over...
The communication Jesus recounted between Lazarus and the rich man was not a parable,
And the story of Lazarus and the rich man is certainly not referring to the time AFTER Hell is thrown into the lake of fire.
I will now leave it to you. I am not in the habit of arguing with a closed mind.
So, which of us has a closed mind?
Luke has it, “Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.” (Luke 3:17)
BTW, until the 20th century, the word fire in the minds of men meant both heat and light. Now we think of it as heat only. Many places in the bible where the original text is translated “fire”, could today be translated “light”.
Not that this is one of those, though the unquenchable fire could be the light of God’s holiness.
Moreover, the smoke of their torment does not cease, indicating ongoing destruction, for the laws of physics do not apply in the spiritual realm.
Your reference to Isaiah 1 speaks of an unquenchable fire. In fact, it depicts someone burning alive and there will be nobody there with a bucket of water to put it out, so the fire consumes them.
Your posts remind me od one obsessive Mormon named Delphi User. His needy ego displayed these same characteristics. We should all now bow to your superior mind and leave you in your smarm.
People assume everyone wants to be obedient to God if they truly understood they would go the hell. Consequently we try to convince them of the fate and hope they will “see the light”.
But what if the situation is really reversed; that everyone really doesn’t care about being obedient to God regardless of the consequences? If this last scenario is true, then God is on a rescue mission to save some of us from the fate that we purposely want for ourselves. We see the fruit and just don’t care if we eat it or not.
When someone posts obsessively, even trying to taunt others into exchanges —showing a needy ego, not a truthful heart— it is too obvious that such an mind is closed, twisted, and tamped down.
Your posts remind me od one obsessive Mormon named Delphi User. His needy ego displayed these same characteristics. We should all now bow to your superior mind and leave you in your smarm.
Now, if this were a global warming thread, I’d appear to “obsess” with that.
Regarding my superior intellect, nope. I’m pretty average. I just require that people make their point if they are going to present it as the god’s truth. And I’ve also argued with liberals on subjects that try to inundate me with ludicrous arguments that are just too volumnous to warrant a response. It takes me five minutes to interpret and respond to your post. Some of those other posts, no matter how easy they are to refute on a point by point basis, can simply take way too long. Especially if I’ve responded to the same arguments on multiple occasions. There was even a thread here about how much work it can be when the same arguments come up over and over. And over.
Sorry. You couldn’t be more wrong regarding my motives. It is not
But I’ll leave you to whatever threads or thoughts you are on...
But what if the situation is really reversed; that everyone really doesn’t care about being obedient to God regardless of the consequences? If this last scenario is true, then God is on a rescue mission to save some of us from the fate that we purposely want for ourselves.
And once they have made the easy decision that the eternal suffering meme is baloney, it is very easy for them to throw the whole thing out. I see the reverse when I enter anti-Christian threads that always come to the “what kind of loving God would sentence most people to an eternity of conscious suffering” point. And as Christians try to connect these unconnectable dots for them, I enter the thread with, “Where does the bible say such a thing?”
It starts a dialogue that goes in a completely different direction. What is comical is the strongly “anti-christian” folks find themselves in a position of defending the “eternal suffering” meme. At least, it would be comical if it were not so serious.
Personally, I understand your confusion. But the dots ARE connectable. It's simply that most Christians have the wrong understanding of the biblical context of God. I would recommend a study on the difference between monergism and synergism. These are two entirely different perspectives of God. Most believers subscribed to synergism which has warped views on hell, heaven, knowing God, justification, atonement, on and on and on. Monergism focus on God's sovereignty. If you understand the sovereignty of God you'll understand the answers (well, most). As my friend Dr. E would say, there are very few shades of grey.
God is loving. We are not. If we understood this we wouldn't get wrapped up in "Why would a loving God give us eternal torment?" The answer to that question is that we ask for it-maybe not directly but we still ask for it. It's like the rich man and Lazarus, we wouldn't even ask forgiveness if we saw the feast of Abraham right before our eyes and we were burning in hell. That's how evil we are. The problem is few wants to admit they're evil. It's all this, "I'm OK, You're OK." nonsense that float around us-not only in the secular world but in the Christian world as well.
All God wants us to do is to admit that we're this way and ask Christ His Son to cleanse us from this attitude. That's it. And then one will know God exists.
Well, most of your post could spawn a LOT of discussion and questions, but we are in total agreement on your last statement:
“All God wants us to do is to admit that we’re this way and ask Christ His Son to cleanse us from this attitude. That’s it. And then one will know God exists.”
I do not call it an allegory,
Is the (soon) return of Messiah with vengeance and wrath (upon this physical Earth) also an allegory? Is what Jesus called the ‘great tribulation’ only for a short time and for the flesh alone? And if so, then how much time is too much time to dispense it?
And yes the communication between Lazarus and the rich man occurred before hell is thrown into the lake of fire, which does not happen until the end of the age, and more importantly it occurred prior to Jesus being in the Earth three days and three nights as the Sign of Jonas, (from the 14th of Nisan to the 17th of Nisan) What was happening at that time?
Thanks for the link above, but there are much better ones to support such an opinion, this one is flesh and has the spirit of fear throughout. In fact I read one the other day that made a far more convincing case, which is why I commented here at all.
I tend to see those that have lost (whom they believe as unsaved) loved ones as being particularly susceptible, or those following some of the more persuasive cults. While I could hope myself that all torment is forever extinguished, I cannot even in the flesh (seeing through a glass darkly) through the faith in the word, ever hope to reconcile that desire with the ultimate accounting for those rejecting his pardon, and that reconciliation is not given to us, they rejected the Lamb slain [before] the foundation of the world, and its only the flesh that bothers about the accounting in time,
Is the (soon) return of Messiah with vengeance and wrath (upon this physical Earth) also an allegory? Is what Jesus called the ‘great tribulation’ only for a short time and for the flesh alone? And if so, then how much time is too much time to dispense it?
Lazarus and the rich man is nicely dissected here: http://bible-truths.com/lazarus.html
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