Posted on 12/15/2013 4:44:19 PM PST by kronos77
At a rival protest in Kiev this weekend, impoverished workers from eastern Ukraine turned out to show their support for the government and stronger ties with Moscow even as the pro-EU crowd grew ever more jubilant. They were poor. Their clothes looked cheap and worn, their faces tired; their feelings were hurt. A group of workers and miners from Kirovsk, an industrial town in eastern Ukraine, were among thousands of protesters walking on Sunday morning towards the anti-Euro rally in Kiev’s Mariinsky park, to demonstrate their support for Ukraine’s president, Victor Yanukovych, and for friendship with Russia. Two parts of Ukraine spoke out in Kiev’s squares this weekend; both had the right to be heard.
To most of the pro-government protesters, residents of the eastern and southern parts of Ukraine, Kiev’s divorce with Moscow would mean unemployment, more poverty and hunger. For the past month, they had felt heartbroken watching “the other Ukraine” on the news, as hundreds of thousands of pro-EU protesters declared that “Ukraine would not be a province of the Russian empire any longer.” The Maidan camp with all its E.U. flags, where U.S. Senator John McCain addressed the crowd this weekend, and where Ukrainian nationalist songs ring out, is “an ideologically hostile place, aiming to cause a schism of Ukraine,” said Aleksander Lukyanenko, an unemployed man and member of the Party of Regions, which led the anti-EU factions.
But just as Lukyanenko and his friends were about to step into the crowded park, a young hipster handed them a flier. It was a copy of a letter from the Maidan, distributed by the opposition to participants in the pro-government rally.
(Excerpt) Read more at thedailybeast.com ...
but who is going to invest in conditions of overproduction?
China buys 5 percent of Ukraine’s land
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/Blog/2013/09/23/China-buys-5-percent-of-Ukraines-land/5941379959745/
How anyone could be an admirer of that murderous thug, KGB Putin, is beyond me. Especially here on FR.
Well, how long have you been here? I can tell you some history.
I agree with you. Ukraine mainly suffers from a management and corruption problem. They have tremendous potential as a country, but never seem to achieve it.
You did see a similar thing in Poland, a lot of Poles advocated for the EU as a jumping platform to immigrate to Britain and France. Same for Bulgarians and Romanians. These are people who live in countries that haven’t done well economically for a long time, and joining the EU means limitless travel to richer member states where they can undercut native workers a lot of the time (no slant on them, they do what they have to for their families). Although this is just a trade deal for now, we all know its a stepping stone to full-fledged membership and that all-important open-border pass.
It does surprise me that more of Ukraine’s leaders aren’t for the EU deal. If it did turn into membership, they might reap similar benefits to Mexico’s political establishment when they started flooding across our borders and sending money back home.
Ukraine should tread carefully when forging trade agreements with anyone, careful to keep their sovereignty intact. Nothing is worse than when your country is vulnerable to the whims of people you have no control over. Putin clearly already has leverage over Ukraine because of the gas lines, so I would be cautious of any kind of ‘Eurasian Trade Bloc’ deals that might expand that influence.
You are definitely seeing an east-west divide in Ukraine on this, and it is centered around economic and cultural differences between the geographical areas. It’s understandable that the easterners are worried about this. They will likely lose their Russian-linked livelihoods should Ukraine take the EU deal. I would question becoming involved in an organization in which many member states want out right now.
They burned EU flags across Hungary recently, mainly a sign of the Jobbik rise. Anti-EU sentiment is also at an all-time high in the UK, and the Netherlands seems to be angling to give an anti-EU party a large share of the vote in the next election.
Personally, I can see the whole China-Japan showdown coming to a head before this thing sorts itself out.
I’m aware that there are some here. I just can’t understand how they’re allowed to stay and push their pro-Putin BS. I mean, there are probably people here who believe their crap, especially the younger members.
No. Putin doesn’t know what’s best for Ukraine, nor does he care. He’s doing what’s best for Russia. What would you expect him to do? And the EU leaders are hardly seeking this deal because they care about Ukraine. They have their own ends.
Unfortunately with a country that is really split East and West, one deal will benefit the westerners and harm the easterners, and vice versa.
So, would you care to expand our discussion to include, say, Texas, or California?
Actually “50 percent of Ukrainians in the east and south—regions where the populations tend to be more sympathetic to Russia—support joining the European Union”
Its not about ethnicity its about people wanting a better standard of living. Ukraine already has tremendous ties with Russia. Its not working.
Leading to the question: what is more disconcerting—fat women fainting at Obama rallies, or FReepers fainting at the mention of their hero, Vladimir Putin?
This coming from the biggest supporter of Communist China and the Communist Chinese....Ni Hao, Chairman Mao
The EU has failed...and no matter how much taxpayer money or US wealth you throw at it....it still is a failure.
I’d sure be very leery of any nation joining the group that most demonstrates the total failure of Free Trade.
Even scarier, Obama is pushing a US-EU Free Trade pact which would absolutely destroy whats left of the US economy. The Eu is bad for the US, and bad for Ukraine
The political split correlates better with languages.
In what way? The issue is not black and white in Ukraine. The people who work in the industrial east have a lot to lose if Putin puts some kind of unofficial embargo on them, but the west has failed to make any economic headway and feels this deal with the EU may alleviate their troubles, (as I said, I think many just want to leave Ukraine altogether).
Of course Texas and California, while both being states, do have economies that run differently, but you don’t have the same dynamic that you do with Ukraine. America is (for now), the most economically powerful nation in the world. We pretty much set the trend for trade worldwide, and we don’t have anything comparable to the situation where we are being torn between two vastly economically superior powers.
Ukraine is hobbled by its internal problems. Compare it to Belarus. Belarus has many of the same disadvantages economically. Its not very successful, but General Lukashenko keeps the country ticking over because the people are largely of a Russian mindset with little division among them, and the entire country has gained as Russia has rebuilt itself.
Ukraine is instead racked with political strife and division, a tense language barrier between east and west, religious and cultural differences, a democracy which doesn’t function very effectively, and trade ties with Russia that often fail to benefit the westerners.
In retrospect, Ukraine was a poorly conceived country after the collapse of the Soviet Union. They drew the borders wrong.
Feel free (no pun intended) at any time to point to a post where I support Communist China . . . you don't even have to make me the "biggest."
[For newcomers late to this discussion, SeminoleCounty believes I support China because I oppose his efforts to increase your taxes.]
The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward. None of those countries makes anything anymore. A lot of them have transferred to service economies notoriously vulnerable to recessions and collapses. British banking sector is a good example. Germany does better than the rest in that they still do big manufacturing.
The EU is a lot like us in that they live off their good name, and a population with expensive tastes. If a wind howls hard enough, it’ll blow away like pickup sticks. Where will such an economic hurricane come from? Likely the giant in the West with almost 20 trillion dollars in debt and a Marxist curtain-hanger in the White House.
Its not so much pro-Putin BS....so much as folks like to see a leader of a nation actually stand up for their nation...and not go chicken-feces like the Dems and RINOs do here.
Putin is no nice guy....but he is not going to let his nation be walked over.
Of course, Rudeboy is one of the biggest supporters of Communism and Globalism around here. Kinda hypocritical to be attacking folks who say something positive about Putin
Oh, just admit . . . when you see a photo of Vladi you touch yourself.
Industrial east has a lot to lose because they are not competitive with EU countries. But if Ukraine walls itself off from competition, how will the industry ever become capable of competing globally? If you look at countries like Poland and Hungary in the 1990s, they did not appear to have a chance of competing with German or EU companies. But Poland and Hungary
joined the European Union and both found that economic integration, which forced their industries and exporters to become more efficient and competitive, helped grow and strengthen their economies — promoting significant increases in living standards.
You willing to put tarifs on the Communist Chinese...after their trade barriers on US products...after the WTO has ruled against Communist China and in favor of the US? You willing to put tariffs on the Communist Chinese to alleviate the huge trade deficits with them? Are you willing to put tariffs on the Communist Chinese for their threats to Japan and other Asian nations?
If any of these answers are no....you are a supporter of Communist China.
You have no business criticizing anyone who isn’t negative about Putin...look who you support....
“The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward.”
So its better to be economically tied to Russia?
The main reason expanding trade ties with the EU is a bad idea is because its a fading market going forward. None of those countries makes anything anymore. A lot of them have transferred to service economies notoriously vulnerable to recessions and collapses. British banking sector is a good example. Germany does better than the rest in that they still do big manufacturing.
The EU is a lot like us in that they live off their good name, and a population with expensive tastes. If a wind howls hard enough, it’ll blow away like pickup sticks. Where will such an economic hurricane come from? Likely the giant in the West with almost 20 trillion dollars in debt and a Marxist curtain-hanger in the White House.
Good points in all
Free Trade just does not work. There is no evidence it works...just a lot of theory from liberal professors at liberal universities. But, actual evidence it does work, there is none at all
The nation that realizes this sooner will be the nation that becomes the economic giant in the 21st Century
Nothing is stopping these peasants from moving to Russia.
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