Woman in DC chase may have thought Obama was stalking her, sources say (He's stalking us all)

nbc ^ | 10/4/2013 | Pete Williams and Erin McClam

[tobyhill]

The woman who led authorities on a chase from the White House to the Capitol before she was killed by police may have thought that President Barack Obama was stalking her, law enforcement sources told NBC News.

The sources said that the woman, Miriam Carey, had a history of mental health problems.

The chase, on Thursday afternoon, stirred panic in the capital and briefly stopped the mechanisms of government. It happened two weeks after a man shot 12 people to death at the Washington Navy Yard.

Members of the House and Senate, in a standoff over the government shutdown, were ordered to stay in place. One lawmaker was cut off mid-sentence during a speech. A swarm of police startled tourists who were taking in Washington on a summery day.

[Brown Deer]

There should be background checks to buy motor vehicles!

[justlurking]

From your armchair maybe, but I've made no such conclusion. She might have been simply terrified.

I'm sure she was. But, how were the police supposed to know that?

Your argument here is totally spurious, because at the time she was shot the car was stopped.

She was stopped at the White House, too. Then, she backed away and struck a Secret Service agent.

They could see her well enough to know that there was no gun pointed at them.

I didn't claim she was pointing a gun. I asked: if she had been threatening someone with a gun, would [you, not have] have blamed the police for shooting her?

Please answer the question. And, then you can answer my followup question as well: is her automobile a less deadly weapon than a firearm?

Back to the false premise eh? Earth to justlurking: that means you don't have an argument.

False premise? I even did the calculations for you. Measured in kinetic energy, an automobile is far more deadly than any handheld weapon.

The car was on dirt. Shooting out the tires would have disabled it without spraying fragments anywhere.

I see you also learned your police tactics from TV shows and movies. A hint: deflating tires only slows down a car. It doesn't immobilize it.

There is no proof that she was threatening anybody once the car had crashed.

She had already struck a gate (actually, it was apparently a Barry-cade) at the White House, then struck a Secret Service agent after or when she backed away. I asked you earlier: If someone had already injured another person by hitting them, and was threatening to do the same to you..... If someone has already done that, you don't consider it possible they will do it again?

Here's a nice graphic with a timeline, showing everything that happened:

here's where she briefly stopped near the US Capitol. Note that people are pointing guns at her, and apparently shots were fired, but it's unclear if she was shot at that time:

Note that she appears "boxed in". But, she managed to back away, continue for several blocks and eventually struck another cruiser:

The car finally ended up here:

There's a car behind it now, but aside from that I don't see anything behind her car that would have prevented her from backing up. If there was a police officer standing behind her, attempting to reverse would have been considered a threatening gesture, especially since she had already done it twice.

This seems to be what a lot of people are missing: She had already been stopped twice and escaped -- injuring at least one officer/agent in the process. The officers confronting her the third time don't know that she's (probably) suffering from a medical disorder. They don't know there's a toddler in the back seat. All they know is what she has already done, and she is continuing to act in a threatening manner.

In a perfect world, the officers would have been omniscient and instead called the paramedics to help her. But, especially in the environment around the US Capitol, they have to consider that it isn't just a misunderstanding. If the woman had gotten away a third time and seriously injured or killed another person (accidentally or intentionally), they would have had to explain their (lack of) action.

I'm no fan of the militaristic attitude of police, either. But, this woman was given multiple opportunities to surrender. I realize that she probably resisted because she was suffering from a medical disorder, but the police didn't know that. All they saw was someone who appeared to attempt to breach barricades at the White House, and then the US Capitol.

If she had succeeded in breaching the barrier and/or done some real damage to someone, would you now be saying: "They should have given her the benefit of the doubt"?

[Brooklyn Attitude]

“Which is why you haven’t seen it. Because it will show a perfectly reasonable flight reaction to an armed and sudden assault by NON uniformed men.”

What explains the flight after the uniformed and marked police vehicles show up?

[thoughtomator 2.0]

The level of mercy they showed her, if nothing else, shows she was justified in trying to flee.

Apparently they killed her AFTER she got out of her car and was surrounded. Summary execution. Her instincts were correct proven correct by the fact that she was murdered - those were evil men with the intent to do her harm, and to save herself and her baby she had to get away.

[thoughtomator 2.0]

The only agent injured was the one who drove himself at speed into a concrete barrier. Self-inflicted injury by way of reckless incompetence.

[thoughtomator 2.0]

You should know by now that that cruiser was wrecked by its own driver striking a stationary barrier nowhere in the vicinity of the woman killed. You need to re-script your narrative because there is video evidence showing that that version of events is definitely not correct.

[Carry_Okie]

She might have been simply terrified.

I'm sure she was. But, how were the police supposed to know that?

It's their job to allow for that.

She was stopped at the White House, too. Then, she backed away and struck a Secret Service agent.

As I understand it, it was a White House traffic barrier, not the building itself. She could have simply made a turn onto a street that her experience had taught her was unobstructed, not noticing the fence. After slamming into it, she probably went into a degree of shock. The rest would be automatic panic, for which she would not have deserved to die.

After a simple traffic accident, out come a horde of guys with guns. She was probably terrified and confused. It's their job to allow for that. I doubt she was even cognizant that she'd hit the guy.

I didn't claim she was pointing a gun. I asked: if she had been threatening someone with a gun, would [you, not have] have blamed the police for shooting her?

No. The question has nothing to do with what happened. It was a specious argument.

And, then you can answer my followup question as well: is her automobile a less deadly weapon than a firearm?

It wasn't when they shot her because it was not moving, as your point about momentum makes evident. Simply possessing a weapon is not grounds for deadly force. People do surrender after chases. The police should have allowed for that; it's their job.

A hint: deflating tires only slows down a car. It doesn't immobilize it.

It slows it down enough so as not to be a threat of momentum. The officers can dodge it in time without tires, and even more easily if they plant a few slugs into the engine.

Measured in kinetic energy, an automobile is far more deadly than any handheld weapon.

Not when it is at rest. Believe me, a service revolver into the aluminum engine block would have stopped that car, pronto. If he had time to shoot her, he had time to disable the car. If she wasn't aiming a weapon, he had an obligation to hold his fire.

I see you also learned your police tactics from TV shows and movies.

BTW, this comment renders you a hot-head, just like the cop who shot her was. They are supposed to be trained to exercise judgment in a stressful situation. Unfortunately, the nature of that training has changed to where "officer safety" trumps "protect and serve."

The reason for that emphasis is public employee unions. Are you a supporter of such policies? Law enforcement isn't even on the top ten list of hazardous professions.

She had already struck a gate (actually, it was apparently a Barry-cade) at the White House, then struck a Secret Service agent after or when she backed away.

She might not have even known she hit him. Did she deserve to die for that?

If someone has already done that, you don't consider it possible they will do it again?

Not if I'm there with a service revolver to disable the car.

No, if I was her family, I'd sue the crap out of them and probably win. It's the mind set of these police as "us v. them" that gets them into this paranoid response set. It makes them so jumpy that they are demonstrably less effective as law enforcement officers, as documented by government statistics. Yet statistically, law enforcement is one of the safer "hazardous" jobs in America.

There are approximately 900,000 law enforcement officers in the United States. They suffer approximately 150 deaths per year. That's a rate of 0.1667 deaths per 100,000. By comparison, fishermen suffer over 200 deaths per 100,000, with loggers second at about 110. Police don't even make the top 20 on the list. There is no logical justification for the level of collective paranoia that has become a "corporate culture" of what has effectively become a standing army within the United States.

READ THAT BOOK. You'll learn something.

[Brooklyn Attitude]

I’ll reserve judgement regarding summary execution, murder etc until more facts are in. These days initial reports are essentially worthless.

[Albion Wilde]

You’ve never lived in Washington, have you? I have. It is a city unlike any other. You do not mess around in the streets of DC. That has been true since the first Lincoln’s assassination. It’s not new, nor unique to this Admin.

[thoughtomator 2.0]

That’s a fair approach.

Let me go on the record saying that you will not be allowed to see the video of the start of the incident because it will be damning to the government and will prove that she was right to flee, and that she was murdered.

I believe this because, over a day later, there is still not a single picture of the WH gate she allegedly rammed to start the incident. It’s central to the story but NO ONE in the MSM is even looking. That only happens when the order has been given that they should not look.

They’re covering up a murder. If they want anyone to believe otherwise, let’s see the videotape of what started all this. It definitely exists - every WH entrance has multiple cameras running 24/7.

[thoughtomator 2.0]

I live right outside DC. If your reaction to a bunch of strange men in DC proper assaulting your car and pulling guns on you is to stop and explain yourself, your life expectancy will be measured in weeks, if not shorter. DC ain’t for the naive, it’s pretty much a mini Chicago with a federal park in the middle.

[Brooklyn Attitude]

“”Measured in kinetic energy, an automobile is far more deadly than any handheld weapon.””

“Not when it is at rest.”
Unless its packed with explosives.

“Believe me, a service revolver into the aluminum engine block would have stopped that car, pronto. If he had time to shoot her, he had time to disable the car.”

Disabling a car with a duty weapon is very unlikely even IF the engine is aluminum. Police ammo doesnt have a great deal of penetration especially after traveling through a hood and other car parts. It also difficult to know where to aim especially when you cant see the engine. As someone who has shot alot of junk cars with 357 and 44 mag handguns, you would be surprised at how ineffective they are on the hard parts.

[justlurking]

As I understand it, it was a White House traffic barrier, not the building itself. She could have simply made a turn onto a street that her experience had taught her was unobstructed, not noticing the fence.

Per the NY Post, she drove from Stamford, CT, to DC and over several low barriers, into a driveway leading to the White House, and was stopped by a larger barricade.

ABC News reports that she thought she was obsessed with Obama, and thought she was monitored by him so he could broadcast her life on TV. At one point in December, she was led away in handcuffs and ordered to undergo a mental health evaluation.

The NY Post also reported that a few months ago, she was visiting her sister in NYC, and EMS took her away in restraints on a gurney, as she was screaming: ‘The world is going to end. We are all going to die. It is going to happen.’

You still want to stick with your "made a wrong turn" story?

READ THAT BOOK. You'll learn something.

The only thing I'll learn is that you have an axe to grind, and refuse to look at this incident in the context of the first responders that had to make a split-second decision.

The woman, her child, and the rest of her family have my sympathy. They have probably been dealing with her problems for a long time, and are sad that it came to this.

But, her death is not the fault of the police.

[justlurking]

DC ain’t for the naive, it’s pretty much a mini Chicago with a federal park in the middle.

Having worked there for about a year, and commuted through some of the worst, I agree.

But, this all took place essentially within the "federal park in the middle". This picture was taken in front of the US Capitol:

Yet, that's not where she died. She actually escaped from this blockade and drove a few more blocks.

[Carry_Okie]

Unless its packed with explosives.

Great. Let's just kill all citizens in all situations "dangerous" to police officers.

As someone who has shot alot of junk cars with 357 and 44 mag handguns, you would be surprised at how ineffective they are on the hard parts.

Depends upon the bullet. In my revolver I keep a selection for just such purposes, varying from snake shot, hollow points, and hard case bullets.

[Carry_Okie]

Per the NY Post, she drove from Stamford, CT, to DC and over several low barriers, into a driveway leading to the White House, and was stopped by a larger barricade.

ABC News reports that she thought she was obsessed with Obama, and thought she was monitored by him so he could broadcast her life on TV. At one point in December, she was led away in handcuffs and ordered to undergo a mental health evaluation.

And just how would the police know that when she got there? You have a penchant for injecting spurious information.

You still want to stick with your "made a wrong turn" story?

From the perspective of an officer on the street at the time lacking any other information, yes.

The only thing I'll learn is that you have an axe to grind, and refuse to look at this incident in the context of the first responders that had to make a split-second decision.

Given that 10% of the 450 no-knock raids in New York City PER MONTH are at the wrong address and that the victims of these bogus raids are seldom compensated, you have no idea what you are talking about and need to fix it. Given that 300 SWAT officers sat outside Columbine High School for THREE HOURS while children died because it was "too dangerous" to go in AND the LAPD agreed that such was the correct procedure, you bet I have an agenda with these unionized and institutionalized cowards. What police are becoming in this country is a travesty against the Constitution, especially the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, and the presumptions you have justified for the shooting of this woman exemplify it. That you apologize for these policies and procedures with a presumption that the officer has protection of his own life is his first priority because police work is supposedly so bloody dangerous is, based upon the statistical evidence, simply preposterous.

[justlurking]

And just how would the police know that when she got there? You have a penchant for injecting spurious information.

That's exactly my point. You claimed this could have been "just a misunderstanding".

The woman wasn't behaving like it was a "misunderstanding". She was acting like a someone that was trying to breach a barrier designed to block a car, on multiple occasions. How were the police to know it was just a poor woman that apparently wasn't taking her medication?

From the perspective of an officer on the street at the time lacking any other information, yes.

You mean like escaping from two different stops, driving at speeds up to 80 mph, striking at least one Secret Service officer, and practically destroying a police cruiser?

[Albion Wilde]

I’ve read your post several times and sorry, it doesn’t make sense. People who pulls guns on your car when you are on New York Avenue at 6th St NE, vs. people with earphones and body armor who pull guns on your car at the perimeter of the White House — two different things.

[thoughtomator 2.0]

I could take a picture no more than 2 blocks (far less than traveled during this incident) from the Capitol of a place that looks like a dumping ground for a mental hospital.

She wasn’t from DC, very unlikely to know the street grid which may be the single most confusing-to-a-newcomer street grid in existence, which just happens to funnel lost tourists right down the street where the incident started.

What exactly happened then we have no reliable information. What we do know is that the official story (that she rammed a gate with her car) is a lie - no damage to the front end of that vehicle, as you can see. What probably happened is that she took a wrong turn trying to get out of the hellish traffic down there, into a SS security zone. At which point they promptly started shouting and drawing guns on her.

Now from her perspective it’s oh shit I’m lost in DC and I’ve got my kid in the car, and I just got jumped by a bunch of guys with guns - I better hightail it the hell out of there. At which point her fight or flight/protect my child reflex kicked in, and she fled. Next thing she knows she’s got police shooting at her and doesn’t know where might be safe. She’s confused - as you can see by her double-loop around the circle in the televised part of the incident.

What she is not, at this or any other point, is a mortal threat that needs to be neutralized and executed. She’s a lost middle-class professional mother with her child in downtown DC who just got shot at.

And now she’s a victim of murder - of ruthless cops who found an excuse to kill and took it with a vengeance.

[thoughtomator 2.0]

She wasn’t from DC and had no way to know that.