Chuck Smith, founder of Calvary Chapel, dies at 86

Chuck Smith, the evangelical pastor whose outreach to hippies in the 1960s helped transform worship styles in American Christianity and fueled the rise of the Calvary Chapel movement, died Thursday, Oct. 3, 2013, after a battle with lung cancer. He was 86. Diagnosed in 2011, Smith continued to preach and oversee administration at Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa (California), where he'd been pastor since 1965. In 2012, he established a 21-member leadership council to oversee the Calvary Church Association, a fellowship of some 1,600 like-minded congregations in the United States and abroad.

Let’s count. I count 24 personal pronouns in this song, as compared to eight mentions of God. It’s more than fair to ask who this song is for, who it’s about, and who it really serves. This song is about the seeker, not the Savior, and it’s far from the only one in the book.
——————————————————————————————Have you ever gone through the Psalms and counted the “personal pronouns”? (Hint: most of those verses you quoted come directly from the Psalms, as do many contemporary worship verses.)

Might be a good idea to drop into a CC and check them out. Skip the worship if it upsets you but at least catch the verse by verse teachings. It would do you a world of good.

Please don’t respond to me, brother. I’ve never found debating legalists to be productive.

Ask, “SEEK”, knock, and it will be given to you. You seem more in line with the Pharisee’s than with the bride of Christ.

Might be a good idea to drop into a CC and check them out. Skip the worship if it upsets you but at least catch the verse by verse teachings. It would do you a world of good.

Please don’t respond to me, brother. I’ve never found debating legalists to be productive.

Ask, “SEEK”, knock, and it will be given to you. You seem more in line with the Pharisee’s than with the bride of Christ.

I was rather taken back by your treatment of Colonel_Flagg. You forbade him to respond, so I will instead.

Regarding personal pronouns in the Psalms, it is not about the grammar, but the focus.

The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want.
HE maketh me to lie down in green pastures: HE leadeth me beside the still waters.
HE restoreth my soul: HE leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for HIS NAMES’S sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for THOU art with me; THY rod and THY staff they comfort me.
THOU preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: THOU anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.

Although heavy on personal pronouns, it is quite different from:

DESERT SONG (HILLSONG)
This is my prayer in the desert
When all that’s within me feels dry
This is my prayer in my hunger and need
My God is a God who provides

Verse 2:
And this is my prayer in the fire
In weakness or trial or pain
There is a faith proved
Of more worth than gold
So refine me Lord through the flames

Chorus:
And I will bring praise
I will bring praise
No weapon formed against me shall remain
I will rejoice
I will declare
God is my victory and He is here

Verse 3:
And this is my prayer in the battle
When triumph is still on it’s way
I am a conqueror and co-heir with Christ
So firm on His promise I’ll stand

Bridge:
All of my life
In every season
You are still God
I have a reason to sing
I have a reason to worship

Verse 4:
This is my prayer in the harvest
When favor and providence flow
I know I’m filled to be emptied again
The seed I’ve received I will sow

No one is going to take away your MTV. But please leave a place at the table for those of us that are concerned about the aggressive and pervasive onslaught of secularism (pop culture) that has not only invaded our lives, but our Sunday mornings too.

I avoid pop culture (read secularism) as much as possible, not because I am a “legalist” but because I have no desire to fill my mind with this folly, and it now no longer appeals to me.

If the CC teaches that those who disagree on non-doctrinal issues are Pharisees, than I’ll pass on your invitation.

I avoid pop culture (read secularism) as much as possible, not because I am a “legalist” but because I have no desire to fill my mind with this folly, and it now no longer appeals to me.

If the CC teaches that those who disagree on non-doctrinal issues are Pharisees, than I’ll pass on your invitation.

First of all I didn’t forbade him anything.
I was informing him that debating him was a waste of time.

He implied contemporary worship was “destroying traditional worship”

You refer to contemporary worship as MTV, secular, and pop culture, in other words, it’s of the world.

Neither one of you used the word “demonic”, but I’m sure that’s what you feel.

You and the Colonel can worship as you please, where you please. The body of Christ is big and varied,

I find it offensive when both of you feel it necessary to judge congregations that don’t fit into what you believe to be correct.

The Pharisees basically thought like you and the good Colonel and did the same thing. Sorry if that offends you.

The two of you have described CC worship as: MTV, pop culture, aggressive and pervasive secularism invading Sunday morning, a destroyer of classic worship. Have I missed any?

Don’t sell yourself short Hiho, you are a legalist along with the Colonel. I would bet the farm that both of you are also KJV-only. Good ol` 1611 King Jimmy, inspired by god don’t you know?

Feel free to comment and tell the Colonel to do the same.
Let me take the time now to apologize for not reading or responding to any of it.

OK, I guess you pinged me also because, like Joshua, I defend Chuck Smith and the ministry, Calvary Ministries, which he founded.

All this ridiculous bickering over what one thinks God may like or dislike about the music some Christians sing to, the instruments they use, and the words they use when glorifying and praising God.

I went through the song Colonel_Flagg used, Desert Song (Hillsong), as his example of what bothers him about todays modern worship songs. He also points out that the song has a total of 24 pronouns, which he believes it a song about the seeker, not the Savior.

Well I counted the words in the song used, and counting the many times one would sing the Chorus, there are an total of 171 words.

To be fair, I found a Psalm that has close to the same amount of words in it. You will notice that Psalm 42 has 281 words, 34 of which are personal pronouns other than the one used to speak of God, "You". (Check it out below) Would you say that the Psalmist was overly consumed with himself in this Psalm instead of God?

1 As the deer pants for the water brooks,
1So pants my soul for You, O God.

2 my soul thirsts for God, for the living God.
2When shall I come and appear before God?

3 my tears have been my food day and night,
3While they continually say to me,
3"Where is your God?"

4 When I remember these things,
4I pour out my soul within me.
4For I used to go with the multitude;
4I went with them to the house of God,
4With the voice of joy and praise,
4With a multitude that kept a pilgrim feast.

5 Why are you cast down, O my soul?
5And why are you disquieted within me?
5Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him
5For the help of His countenance.

6 O my God, my soul is cast down within me;
6Therefore I will remember You from the land of the Jordan,
6And from the heights of Hermon,
6From the Hill Mizar.

7 Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls;
7All Your waves and billows have gone over me.

8 The LORD will command His lovingkindness in the daytime,
8And in the night His song shall be with me--
8A prayer to the God of my life.

9 I will say to God my Rock,
9"Why have You forgotten me?
9Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?"

10 As with a breaking of my bones,
10my enemies reproach me,
10While they say to me all day long,
10"Where is your God?"

11 Why are you cast down, O my soul?
11And why are you disquieted within me?
11Hope in God;
11For I shall yet praise Him,
11The help of my countenance and my God.

Psalms are songs, while they were usually spoken, often times they were accompanied with instruments.

I wonder how some Christians would react if a worship leader stood before them today reciting poems filled with personal pronouns that neither rhymed, nor used any instruments the parishioners are familiar with?

Now I will not claim that I no problems with the use of Modern styled music in Churches.

However, my problem with Churches using modern music has nothing to do with the new music, but rather the way worship leaders seem to follow the same type of format many radio stations do. They worship leaders lead the congregation in singing the most popular song of the time, and after a couple of Months they move onto the newest and most recent hit, while seldom playing the ones everyone liked 6 Months ago.

I also think they error in ignoring the traditional Christian songs that many of us older Christians enjoyed growing up with. I also believe that the younger generation is losing out by not learning the traditional Hymns,

That all being said, I think it borders on legalism to claim it is wrong for congregations to use any type of Music they chose to worship God.

I say all this as one who was raised in a Lutheran church until I was 10. When my mother remarried after a divorce, my step father had me attending a Catholic Church, along with taking catechism classes every Wednesday afternoon until I was 16.

At 20, near the end of my military I gave my life to God while attending a non denominational Evangelical Church in Columbus Ga, while stationed at Ft Benning Ga. It was the first time I learned the great Southern Gospels, and really fell in love with them.

That was back in 1976, since then I have moved many times, changed churches many times, and eventually found myself attending a Calvary Chapel in Chico where I now live. I soon learned that I really like the modern Christian music, but I do still enjoy the songs I learned in my younger years.

At 57 years old, I have learned that men can worship God in many ways. It's not the way one worships god that matters, it's what one believes about the Scriptures that matters. Do you follow the truth, or are you one who wants your itchy ears scratched so that you can justify your immoral life.

Sorry for the long response, but I get very carried away when it comes to my stance on Christian matters. Besides, by pinging me, you wanted me to respond.

You are young for a dinosaur, grasshopper.

You say you use the KJV and the NIV. While I grew up reading the KJV, I have learned through the years, especially after I learned Greek and Hebrew that the KJV has many errors in it that are left over from the translator using either the Latin Vulgate or the translators own opinion when they had no ancient manuscripts to go by. This led to errors which have been corrected in the NKJV.

As for the NIV, one of the worse transliterations there has ever been in my opinion. Well, other than the nearly heretical NNIV translation.

Maybe you should do as I do, learn to use the Hebrew & Greek to compare the different translations and you will see that the NASB is the best translation, however I like the NKJV because it kept the poetic flow of the original KJV.

One example of the KJV being way wrong is the 6th Commandment. The KJV say “Thou Shall Not Kill”, however it is wrong. The original manuscripts and the truth is, “You Shall Not Murder”. By stating it is kill, many of Christians have been led astray to think God forbade us to kill anyone regardless of the reason, but he only forbade us to murder innocent people.

This error has even led many Christians to follow left wing liberals who use the misguided stance of no killing to gain power. Very dangerous, and that is but one error in the original KJV, but a huge one.

If you attended a Calvary chapel you would have learned that though, because it is one of the 10 Commandments.

Now, as for the NIV, at least the translators have the 6th Commandment right by stating “Murder” instead of “Killing”. has it as “Murder” and not “Kill”, but there are so many other errors in the NIV, that most scholars refer to it as the Non-Inspired-Version. So in my humble opinion, I may have problems with the original KJV, but at least there is a good reason for the errors in it. That being the lack of manuscripts at the time of its translation.

However, the translators of the NIV and the NNIV have no excuse. All the transcripts to correct the errors in the KJV were available when the NIV was translated.

Now as for the music, you are wrong, worship has not been destroyed in the Church. It can only be destroyed if God’s people refuse to worship God with all their mind, heart, and soul.

For a long time I was a pastor for a retirement center, and I used Gospel music because the men and women were from the generation that enjoyed them. I did bring some modern ones in from time to time just to get their opinion, and they all had no problem with them, but they preferred the traditional music.

Many of the ladies were widows who have walked with Christ since their childhood. Some were widows of pastors, and some were children of pastors, but they all worshiped God in spirit and truth from their heart. Nothing was going to destroy their faith, least of all modern worship music.

The archbishop of Milan, Aurelius Ambrosius, was the first one to use any sort of music to get the congregation ready for the word. Many at the time accused him of destroying Christianity by leading his followers astray. He was accused of secularizing Christianity in order to win new converts. Similar argument you use to attack modern worship music.

Like I said, even King David was attacked bu his wife for making a fool of himself by dancing half naked in the street while playing the harp as the Arc of the Covenant was brought into Jerusalem. After all, you never would have seen Samuel doing such a silly and blasphemous thing, now would have Moses, or Joshua.

Be careful about what you claim to be heretical and Christ destroying. Many, many lost souls have come to God in the last 40 years, by a ministry that uses modern worship music. Many of these people are now great followers of Christ who teach the most conservative Christian message straight from the Bible.

I said it before, and I’ll say it again. I will put the knowledge of those who attend Calvary Chapels against any other ministry any day. I guarantee you will not find more knowledgeable and true followers of Christ anywhere. So it seems that modern worship music has not destroyed the message or faith of those singing it at Calvary Chapels.

I dare say that if anyone is losing faith and not learning the truth, it has NOTHING to do with the music, but EVERYTHING to do with the teaching. I also bet you will not find anyone falling in that category at a Calvary Chapel.

I used to be against the contemporary music too, and I certainly agree that we can be self-centered in regard to our Christian walk. The flesh does that.

I pastor a church now, and in the past I played guitar in church with the praise team. I cannot stand to watch people playing who are simply drawing attention to themselves. In fact, I do not allow it.

But in all honesty, the psalms were contemporary when they were written, as was the language of the King James bible. Organs were contemporary when they were first introduced.

Concerning the song that you mentioned, it does not stand a lone when considering the singer's mention of self:

Psalm 23
King James Version (KJV)
23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

I did not count the mentions of David as compared to God, but there were many mentions of David. This chapter has much to say about the believer's desire to look at self and count his blessings or mention things he needs of God.

Yes, I agree. Now I never said I refuse to use the original KJV, it’s just that is has errors.

As for parallels, that truly is a good way to help one understand certain scriptures, however only if those parallels are not crammed into the same book.

I believe that when one has one stop parallels and or study Bibles with added commentaries, it makes the reader lazy.

What I mean is that I have learned that when one uses a study Bible with accompanying commentary, the reader fails to go elsewhere for information. So all they get is the opinion of the one who wrote the commentary in their Bible.
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(As an aside, that is why the vast majority of Christians are dispensationists. Scofield was the first to produce a bible with commentary, and many learned about the scriptures from his commentary and he was the first to write extensively on eschatology. This commentary influenced many future preachers and Christian College instructors who in tern influenced those who came after them. Eventually the vast majority of study bibles were written with the same influence on end times. Not saying they are wrong, just an aside FYI.)

..............................................................................

Anyway, I have a few study Bibles, well OK, I have a bout 10, but I have collected them over the years for the purpose of cross study.

For the last 10 years my main Bible has been a soft leather covered NKJV with nothing but the Scripture. It’s light weight, easy to hold and it forces me to go elsewhere when I have questions or need further insight.

It has some pages that can be difficult to read, but only because of the notes I have cluttering up the page.....LOL

I used to use the NASB, but it can be overly harsh at times what with the way it uses more of a college level of wording to get as close to word for word as possible when one translates ancient Greek and Hebrew to our modern day English.

So I found I like the poetic flow of the NKJ like you, because it does remind me of the way I learned to read as a youngster when I read the KJV.

Do you attend or teach at a Calvary Chapel, or similar ministry?

I pastor a small non-denominational church North of Atlanta. My church is more or less Pentecostal (but not with the rules about the dress codes and all of that) in its style. I am NOT ashamed of that, but I don’t like labels.

For three years I have been the senior pastor. About five years before that I was the associate pastor. For a few years before that I was the head usher, but my earliest experiences came from being a children’s teacher and then eventually a children’s pastor.

I was born-again in 1990 but have been in some form of ministry most of that time.

Like you, I get kind of bogged down using a bible with the commentary included. I am not opposed to them, but my main bible is a giant print NKJV with no marginal notes or commentary at all.

We should look to see what others have to say about an are that they have studied thoroughly, but like you would say, we need to trust in the Holy Spirit to give us some revelation as well.

Thanks for this enjoyable conversation!

At the end of my enlistment I was stationed at Fort Benning Ga. That is where I met the Lord as an adult. I was raised to go to church, but my family was anything but Christian, even if they stated so.

Anyway, after my enlistment ended, I stayed in Columbus for a couple of years until 1979. I went back down in “85” for awhile, but ended up in Montana where my ancestors were homesteaders. I was raised in Minnesota, but always wanted to live in MT. I did, and realized I needed to work. Now I live in Chico Ca where I moved to in 1988.

I began attending a Calvary Church in 2004, led Bible Study at Windchime retirement center, and then started doing the Sunday sermons for about 5 years. Then a new director was hired who is an avowed. I knew then my days could be numbered. They told me I was not wanted the week leading up to Easter in 2010.

I understand what you mean about the dress codes having a negative habit of labeling people. Like the angst they have against using modern worship songs, many of these same Christians will rail against the lax of dress code that they claim allows the message to be dumbed down.

As if Jesus was speaking to the well dressed of his time. Those who followed him, and later the Apostles were on the lowest ladder of society. The Roman Empire was changed one slave and riffraff at a time....LOL

It was through them that the upper classes learned the truth about the sect we know as Christianity.

I too enjoyed our conversation. God bless you and yours.

Chuck Ness

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