natural born Citizens: Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal, Ted Cruz

Legal Insurrection ^ | 9/3/13 | William Jacobson

[Lakeshark]

Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution provides, in pertinent part:

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.

**snip**

This political season, the eligibilities of Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal and Ted Cruz are the subject of debate.

As much as we want certainty, the term “natural born Citizen” is not defined in the Constitution, in the writings or history of those who framed the Constitution, or in a demonstrable common and clear understanding in the former British colonies at the time the Constitution was drafted. Nor has the Supreme Court ever ruled on the issue, it probably never will.

The modifier “natural born” is not used anywhere else in the Constitution, and its precise origins are unclear, although it is assumed to be derived in some manner from the British common and statutory law governing “natural born Subjects.” **snip**

want to go on record again objecting to the term “birther.” If the term were confined to conspiracy theorists, that would be one thing. But it has become a tool to shut down even legitimate debate.

The term was used as a pejorative as part of a deliberate Obama campaign strategy to shut down debate on his issues **snip**

5. The Framers never expressed what “natural born Citizen” meant **snip**
6. “natural born Citizen” usage at the time of drafting the Constitution is uncertain **snip**
7. British common and statutory law doesn’t solve the problem **snip**
8. There Is No Requirement That Both Parents Be Citizens

[Uncle Chip]

There are two kinds of citizens contemplated in Article II (excepting the grandfather clause, which as an ongoing concern died with the last American born before the Constitution). We have natural born and naturalized.

What about women who derived their citizenship by means of marriage to their citizen husbands??? They are neither natural born nor naturalized.

[Uncle Chip]

But neither were John McCain and the hundreds of thousands of military and commercial children who, over the years, were born overseas.

Actually if you are born overseas while parents are there on governmental/diplomatic/military service it is as if you are born on American soil. That's what McCain's SR511 was all about.

Other than that you are foreign born and derive your citizenship from your parents.

[CodeToad]

"Constitutionalists" You're an idiot, not a Constitutionalist. "Well, yer honor, I don't know what law yer talkin' about, but I here am to say I hereby duly elect myself da representative of constitutionalists, and wez knows whats we be talkin' about! So der!"

You haven't even read the Constitution. You ain't got the skills.

[CodeToad]

“Every single one of them tried to pretend that in order to “understand” Article II you have to look to Vattel or some other nonsense.”

Which means they support judges using foreign written documents in US courts...of course that statement just made their heads explode because they are always against foreign documents being used in US courts.

[CodeToad]

What these people are about isn’t trying to support the constitution; I believe they are trolls trying to get us to support illegal aliens and anchor babies by trying to get us to agree that anyone born here is a citizen and gets to stay here.

This entire argument of theirs is about anchor babies, not Cruz.

[Uncle Chip]

So then after filling out your CRBA, and meeting other statutory requirements, and if the “U.S. embassy or consulate determines that the child acquired U.S. citizenship at birth, a consular officer will approve the CRBA application and the Department of State will issue a CRBA, also called a Form FS-240, in the child’s name.”

So then they make his citizenship retroactive to his birth or just call it “citizenship at birth” for statutory reasons and the CRBA becomes his American birth certificate forever acknowledging that he was born in a foreign country.

And this is a natural born citizen???

[Uncle Chip]

Every single one of them tried to pretend that in order to “understand” Article II you have to look to Vattel or some other nonsense.

Then how about trying a Supreme Court Case: Justice Waite in Minor versus Happersett.

[Nero Germanicus]

This is the process used for every child of U.S. Military servicemembers born overseas.

Citizenship for Children Born to Servicemembers Overseas

Question: Are my children who were born overseas US citizens, or can I help them become U.S. citizens?

CAUTION: This is a very complex area of the law. Be careful about trying to do this on your own. Get legal advice, if you can, before seeking citizenship of a child.

Which children born abroad are U.S. citizens at birth?

Certain children born outside the U.S. to U.S. citizens are citizens from the moment they are born. The law on this has changed many times since the early 1900’s. The law in effect on the date of the child’s birth is the law that controls. This discussion refers to the law that has been in affect since November 14, 1986. A child born outside the U.S. after that date is a U.S. citizen at birth in the following situations:
The child’s parents were married before the child was born, and both are U.S. citizens. At least one of the parents has lived at some point in the U.S. before the child’s birth.

The child’s parents were married before the child was born. One parent is U.S. citizen and the other is a U.S. national. The U.S. citizen parent lived continuously for at least one year in the U.S., or a U.S. possession, at some point before the child’s birth.

The child’s parents were married before the child was born. One parent is U.S. citizen and the other is a noncitizen. Before the child’s birth the U.S. citizen parent lived for at least five years in the U.S. At least two of those years were when the U.S. citizen parent was older than 14.

The child’s parents were unmarried when the child was born. The child’s mother is a U.S. citizen. The mother lived continuously for at least one year in the U.S. at some point before the child’s birth.

The child’s parents were unmarried when the child was born. Only the child’s father is a U.S. citizen. Before the child’s birth, the father lived for at least five years in the U.S. At least two of those years were when the father was older than 14. Time living abroad while on active duty in the U.S. military counts as time living in the U.S. Before the child’s 18th birthday, the father legitimated the child:
• through marriage, or
• through the appropriate legal process in the country where either the child or the father lived.
Or the father acknowledged paternity in writing under oath, or paternity was established by a competent court, and the father agreed in writing to financially support the child until the child turned 18.

A child born abroad who is a U.S. citizen from birth can apply (or his parents can apply) for a certificate of birth abroad, and for a U.S. passport, from the nearest U.S. consulate.

Again, applying these laws can be complicated, especially those described above at numbers 2 -5. So it is best to speak with an experienced attorney. She or he will help you to better understand the process. Also, speak with a lawyer if you have questions about the citizenship of a child born abroad to a U.S. citizen prior to November 15, 1986. The rules were different then.

[okie01]

Other than that you are foreign born and derive your citizenship from your parents.

Foreign-born, perhaps, but a full-fledged citizen-at-birth nonetheless.

[xzins]

Just being born someplace does not equal an allegiance. We had all kinds of babies born in Germany to our troops stationed there. They had zero allegiance to Germany. They lived in US housing areas, they went to US schools, they even ate Burger King and Taco Bell and Popeyes Chicken.

Do you think they were German?

[sten]

‘split allegiance at birth’ ... no interpersonal relationship between the child and the citizens of the countries is required. just the familial relationship

otherwise the term ‘natural born citizen’ would not apply

as for your example, those kids if born in the local German hospital would be US and German citizens, and that choice results in them not being natural born citizens. the point wasn’t that the kids ate chicken... but had a relationship with the other country that would open the doors for favorability... or a split allegiance.

which is the whole point

[Lakeshark]

Well, I can't think of a good easy name, so I'm going to revert to "birthers, npj" aka birthers not meant as a pejorative.

Eligibility purists, Eligibility types didn't seem to do it, nor does the Constitutionalist thing you suggested.

Going through this thread, several things are clear:

1. There are many kinds of birther npj's. So many of them have different opinions of who is eligible and who is not.
2. There are so many good, solid, conservative arguments against the birther npj philosophies that there is major doubt as to the veracity of the various birther npj's philosophies.
4. The article posted by Prof Jacobson here is well researched, its key points can be debated, but I've not seen any of them clearly refuted in any way shape manner or form. You may want to believe they have, but it's simply not true. He is a fine legal scholar who dug out a lot of information that is excellent.
5. There are many FR birthers npj who understand the ridiculousness of taking out one of our best candidates when the other side never gave a rats rear end if the birther npj arguments were correct or not about their own candidate.
6. There are many FR birthers npj who see the intent of the founders was to not have a divided loyalty to the Constitution and the American ideal. Cruz has no such divided loyalties, although many of his GOP opponents do, and every single rat candidate will.
7. In light of the above, most on FR would appreciate there never be another discussion on this matter of Cruz being eligible again......:-)
8. The founder of this site has weighed in, if Cruz runs those who use the birther npj philosophy against him will no longer be able to post on this site.

I disagree with where you are coming from, but it's doubtful we will resolve it, so let's agree to disagree for now and let's try to prevent as much of Bambi's heinous agenda from ruining our country as possible.

[xzins]

American kids are born in German hospitals, although maybe Landstuhl has a maternity ward. I don’t think so, although I’m not sure.

But, you think our kids living in American housing areas, speaking English, playing football and baseball, speaking little German beyond “Guten Tag”, watching American TV via AFN, and eating at Burger King will breed some kind of sinister alliance against America with secret allegiance to Germany.

That’s more than a little odd.

[Lakeshark]

My daughter lived in Germany as a doctor (neo-natologist: preemie babies) in the Air Force for three years. She told me over half of the babies born by military women were in German hospitals and not on any base.

I am certain all these babies must have had divided loyalties.......

[MHGinTN]

;^) You were paying attention! How sweet.

[P-Marlowe]

;-)

Sometimes we all get a little carried away.

[sten]

your grasp of ‘split allegiances at birth’ needs some work

it doesn’t matter where you lived. the status is determined upon birth. they put it in specifically to address the issue as stated.

‘natural born’ ... no amount of dinner parties or nights at the local pub will change it

stop trying to wiggle around the obvious.

Cruz, Jindal, and Rubio are just as eligible as 0bama.

[xzins]

goose-stepping in the crib

:>)

[xzins]

your grasp of ‘split allegiances at birth’ needs some work

I'm not the one saying American kids born overseas to American military parents are ineligible for the presidency. Dad can be a medal of honor winner, but kid is a suspect. /s

[highball]

Birthers throw around a lot of White’s decision - often, as in his definition of what a NBC *may* be, incorrectly (he didn’t say that his definition was exclusive).

You’ll have to be specific, please.