Posted on 09/03/2013 10:18:04 AM PDT by Lakeshark
Article II, Section 1, of the Constitution provides, in pertinent part:
No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States.
**snip**
This political season, the eligibilities of Marco Rubio, Bobby Jindal and Ted Cruz are the subject of debate.
As much as we want certainty, the term “natural born Citizen” is not defined in the Constitution, in the writings or history of those who framed the Constitution, or in a demonstrable common and clear understanding in the former British colonies at the time the Constitution was drafted. Nor has the Supreme Court ever ruled on the issue, it probably never will.
The modifier “natural born” is not used anywhere else in the Constitution, and its precise origins are unclear, although it is assumed to be derived in some manner from the British common and statutory law governing “natural born Subjects.” **snip**
want to go on record again objecting to the term “birther.” If the term were confined to conspiracy theorists, that would be one thing. But it has become a tool to shut down even legitimate debate.
The term was used as a pejorative as part of a deliberate Obama campaign strategy to shut down debate on his issues **snip**
5. The Framers never expressed what “natural born Citizen” meant **snip**
6. “natural born Citizen” usage at the time of drafting the Constitution is uncertain **snip**
7. British common and statutory law doesn’t solve the problem **snip**
8. There Is No Requirement That Both Parents Be Citizens
(Excerpt) Read more at legalinsurrection.com ...
I’m not sure why you think that Mrs. Nordyke should know anything about a child born at a different hospital (Waihaiwa General Hospital) from her daughters except by reading Internet blogs. She talked about what she knew for certain, the circumstances of her twins’ birth.
Here are the August, 1961 Certificate of Live Birth Registration numbers that we know about:
Ah’Nee, Johanna- 09945- 8/23/1961
Nordyke, Susan – 10637 – 8/5/1961
Nordyke, Gretchen – 10638- 8/5/1961
Obama, Barack – 10641- 8/4/1961
Sunahara, Virginia – 11080 – 8/4/1961
Waidelich, Stig – 10920- 8/5/1961
I like Cruz very much from what I have seen and read. My preferences for other people as POTUSA is that I believe there should be no questions or doubts as to eligibility for POTUSA and I do think there are and will be questions about Cruz as to ‘ natural born citizen’. Just to give you some insight on my take as to dealing with such requirements here is some personal history. After serving in the Army including in the Pacific in WWII I was set to graduate from one of the most prestigious universities in the world. There was a requirement that for graduation you either took/had a course or a 2-3 hour ‘severance’ exam in govt. history/civics to get your degree. This was somewhat irritating because I had years of previous study about and service to the USA; but I took it was that university’s right for giving a degree with their sanction and name on it. I went through the exam like the often noted dose of salts. To this day I have no problem accepting/wanting the most stringent requirement of eligibility for POTUSA.
So what are you going to do if Cruz runs and wins the nomination?
Are you going to allow a genuinely disloyal to the Constitution person such as hillary or whatever rat they run to win because of your so called principles?
Question! Am I supposed to be indentured by your or someone else’s principles? I think not.
Are we supposed to accept that as an intelligent principle?
You obviously cannot read. Nowhere in that statement of mine did I say the Canadians registered his birth as a US citizen.
I don’t know what makes you so stupid but it really works.
Why don’t you beat on me some more? You know I can’t really fight back, after all.
Yup. I was wrong. Should’ve let Bustamonte take it. And should just sit back now and enjoy being raped by Hillary and the communist democrats. /s
If Ted runs he has my support 100%!
Those who don’t like it can piss up a rope.
Run, Ted, run!
I would think that you don’t have to accept anybody’s principles but your own. If it is intelligent or not that is also at your discretion. To take from Patrick Henry ‘But as for me’ I will stay with my own which have served me well.
I recall someone saying something about straining at gnats and swallowing camels......
Vattel used the French: ““Les naturels, ou indigenes”. I know a little about French and enough about translation in general, to realize that turning “Les naturels” into “natural born” is an interpretation and not a translation. The French have a word for born: “ne”. So the above says, literally, “the naturals, or natives”. That is a huge argument in favor of Vattel actually using the two in the appositive, ie, synonyms.
Of interest from one of the posts on legal insurrection: (the following is copy/pasted) Note the interchangeability of “natural born subjects” and “natural born citizens”.
***Adams used the term prior to 1787 as well in treaty negotiations with England as he talked of “natural born subjects” of England as opposed to “natural born citizens” of the United States.
Here are some of the relevant Massachusetts statutes showing the terms were used interchangably:
In February, 1785, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING NICHOLAS ROUSSELET AND GEORGE SMITH.” in which it was declared that Nicholas Rousselet and George Smith “shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, rights and privileges of natural born citizens.”
In February, 1786, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING MICHAEL WALSH.” in which it was declared that Michael Walsh “shall be deemed, adjudged, and taken to be a citizen of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, rights and privileges of a natural born citizen.”
In July, 1786, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING JONATHAN CURSON AND WILLIAM OLIVER” in which it was declared that Jonathan Curson and William Oliver “shall be deemed adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born citizens.“
In March, 1787, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING WILLIAM MARTIN AND OTHERS.” in which it was declared that William Martin and Others,”shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born subjects.”
In May, 1787, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING EDWARD WYER AND OTHERS THEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that William Martin and Others,”shall be deemed, adjudged and taken, to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born subjects.”
In October, 1787, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING BARTHOLOMY DE GREGOIRE, AND MARIA THERESA, HIS WIFE, AND THEIR CHILDREN.” in which it was declared that Bartholomy de Gregoire, and Maria Theresa, his wife, their children,”shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, rights and privileges of natural born citizens.”
In November, 1787, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING ALEXANDER MOORE, AND OTHERS, HEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that Alexander Moore and others,”shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, & entitled to all the privileges, liberties, and immunities of natural born subjects.”
In June, 1788, the Massachusetts legislature passed, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING WILLIAM MENZIES, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that William Menzies and others “shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, and intitled to all the liberties, privileges & immunities of natural born subjects.”
In November, 1788, the Massachusetts legislature passed, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING ELISHA BOURN, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that Elisha Bourn and others “shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, & entitled to all the liberties, privileges & immunities of natural born Citizens.”
In February, 1789, the Massachusetts legislature passed, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING JAMES HUYMAN, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that James Huyman and others “shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free Citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the Liberties, Privileges and Immunities of natural born subjects.”
In June, 1789, the Massachusetts legislature passed, “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING NATHANIEL SKINNER, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED.” in which it was declared that Nathaniel Skinner and others “shall be deemed, adjudged and taken to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born subjects.”
In March, 1790, the Massachusetts legislature passed “AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING JOHN JARVIS, AND OTHERS, THEREIN NAMED” in which it was declared that John Jarvis and others, “shall be deemed adjudged and taken to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, and entitled to all the liberties, privileges and immunities of natural born subjects.”
In March, 1791, the Massachusetts legislature passed“AN ACT FOR NATURALIZING JOHN WHITE & OTHERS” in which it was declared that John White and others, “shall be deemed adjudged and taken, to be free citizens of this Commonwealth, and intitled to all the liberties, privileges, and immunities of natural born subjects.”***
It must be some of the posts I read. I should just ignore them.
“Do not disregard your own principles. “
You stand alone in your opinion that Cruz is not a natural born citizen. You stand with the other ignorant barracks lawyers that want to redefine words to mean things they never meant, all in the name of trying to look intelligent and more knowledgeable than everyone else; the hallmark of a nerd. Even United States Code defines Cruz as a natural born citizen, and it has for years.
So, let’s put this straight: Cruz is an excellent conservative candidate that meets the very definition under the constitution and under law as a natural born citizen to be the President, however, you want to toss him aside and tell everyone else that you are right and he is not a qualified candidate. That’s the bottom line.
This isn’t about the constitution for you, it is about trying to prove to everyone you must be smarter than everyone else because you have figured out some secret meaning of the word “natural” no one else has ever of heard of before even though we all speak English as our first language.
So, you come here and insult the owner of this web site by calling him a hypocrite even though he clearly spelled out the source and reasoning of his beliefs that Cruz is a qualified candidate, a belief that fits the Constitution and the written law. Got it, a nerd and stupid.
You should send that to Professor Jacobson, or post it on his site. I'm sure he would appreciate that. Btw, his blog is worth checking out every day, it's usually quite good.
So did they become "citizens" or "subjects"???
It looks to be a mistake by the printer as the old habits of old Loyalists were dying hard.
I stole it from his site. :>)
Except for the opening paragraph or two. From the asterisks down is a copy/paste.
As you look through it they are using the two interchangeably. Meaning: they saw no difference.
So you would be fine with referring to yourself as a “subject” rather than a “citizen” and being treated as such???
The point is how they were using the terms at the time of the founding of the country.
But only one of the terms was carried forward into the Constitution.
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