1913 Gettysburg Reunion of Blue and Gray

Huntington News ^ | June 14, 2013 | Calvin E. Johnson, Jr.

[BigReb555]

A highlight of the reunion was the Confederate Veterans walk on the path of Gen. George Pickett’s charge that was greeted, this time, by a handshake from the Union Veterans.

[rockrr]

Would you go to war solely to protect slavery?

No.

[0.E.O]

Would you go to war solely to protect slavery?

The real question should be directed to the Confederate leadership; would they send other men to war to protect their slave property? The answer to that was 'yes'.

[Ditto]

I would reply that, given the conditions that then existed, it would be unreasonable for a poor 20-year-old to think that he would become that prosperous.

I don't see any evidence in history that would be the case. America, North and South, was the land of opportunity for people with dreams and ambition. There was no welfare mentality and no such thing as a permanent underclass as we have today.

Many many people began with nothing and ended up very wealthy and successful back then. Think of people like Ben Franklin, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Andy Jackson and even Abraham Lincoln.

[x]

Would you go to war solely to protect slavery?

Would you go to war to protect feudalism? Or to save the Tang dynasty?

Of course, you or I aren't going to go to war to save something that is not a part of our world.

If slavery was a part of our world -- if it was a part of our "way of life" -- we might go to war.

But the decisions about war for this or that reason are made higher up. A 20 year-old wasn't going to consciously decide to go to war for slavery -- though plenty did for the "Southern way of life" -- but might well fight in a war that was caused by conflicts about slavery.

FWIW, Alabama, Mississippi, and Arkansas, like Indiana, Illinois, and Iowa, had been sparsely settled a generation before. It wasn't uncommon for someone to start out with little, acquire land, build a fortune, and become a major slaveowner.

Why do you think the expansion of slavery was such a major issue. One reason was Southern pride. Another was the hope that one could become a big proprietor in the frontier territories. Maybe the hope was misquided, but that's where pride took over.

[BroJoeK]

BJK: "The truth is that Confederate troops typically did as much damage as they could whenever they invaded Union states."

central_va: "Not true, a fairy tail.
I personally wish that were true though...."

Even if we allow for Lee's invasion of Pennsylvania, where his forces pretended to pay for stuff they "requisitioned", the vast majority of Confederate forays into Union areas included specific purpose of securing supplies and destroying Union assets.

Those three different attacks on Chambersburg are typical, including stealing supplies, destroying infrastructure, and even occasion kidnapping and murder of civilians.

Here is a wonderful report of elements of Lee's army occupying Chambersburg in 1863:

"When Union troops fled through town, it fully convinced them that not only were the Confederates in Pennsylvania, but Chambersburg was their target.
The Rebels entered town well after dark, but spent the night a mile or so north.

"Come dawn, the true occupation began.
The Confederates were a mostly well behaved lot.
They hardly bothered the farmers, did not tear down fences, and took only a few of the cattle.
Most things they took were paid for in Confederate script.
Jenkins and his men cleaned out the downtown merchants, who were hardly amused with being paid in such worthless notes.

"General Jenkins and his Confederates paid for everything, but three particular items.
The first was horses, which he considered contraband of war.
When the horses were found to be in short supply, he proceeded to take all of the arms in the town.
Any make or model would do.
When delivered, he destroyed the worthless and kept the finest.

"The third item which Jenkins took while refusing to pay was black people.
His men rounded them up like they had wanted to round up horses. Slave, free, man, women, or child, it did not matter.
To them, a black person was a slave and nothing more.

"Chambersburg, like many larger towns, had a section where many of the black people lived.
According to a local paper, Jenkins’ men, 'went to the part of the town occupied by the colored population, and kidnapped all they could find, from the child in the cradle up to men and women of fifty years of age.'

"Rachel Cormany, a citizen of Chambersburg remembered that the Rebels 'were hunting up the contrabands &c driving them off by droves.
O! How it grated on our hearts to have to sit quietly &c look at such brutal deeds—I saw no men among the contrabands — all women & children.'
Cormany recognized that 'some of the colored people who were raised here were taken along.'
But she could do little apart from watching as the black women and children were 'driven like cattle.'
One women, she recalled 'was pleading wonderfully with her driver for her children – but all the sympathy she received from him was a rough ‘March along.’ "

For other examples, Morgan's raids into Kentucky, Indiana and Ohio show the pattern:

• Kentucky July 1862: "At the completion of his escape through the Commonwealth, Morgan claimed to have captured and paroled 1,200 enemy soldiers, recruited 300 men and acquired several hundred horses for his cavalry, used or destroyed supplies in seventeen towns, and incurred fewer than 100 casualties.[49]"

• Kentucky December 1862: "Morgan's men crossed into Kentucky on December 22 and captured a Union supply wagon bound for Glasgow.[76]
  On Christmas Day, Morgan's men rode through Glasgow, bound for Bacon Creek Station and the L&N bridge span.
  After quelling the stiff Union resistance, Morgan's men destroyed the bridge and several miles of railroad track.[76]
  Whatever else might happen, they had succeeded in disrupting Rosecrans' supply line.[76]"

• Kentucky December 1862: "Morgan's men arrived safely in Campbellsville on New Year's Eve and captured some welcome supplies."

• Peducah Kentucky, March 1864: Confederate General Nathan Bedford "Forrest held the city for ten hours, destroying the Union headquarters, as well as the buildings housing the quartermaster and commissary.[97]
  Forrest also captured a total of 200 horses and mules before withdrawing to Mayfield.

  "Unionist newspapers bragged after the raid that Union forces had hidden the best horses in the area and that Forrest had only captured horses stolen from private citizens.[98]
  Furious, Forrest ordered Buford back into Kentucky.[98]
  Buford's men arrived on April 14, forced Hicks back into the fort, and captured an additional 140 horses in the foundry, exactly where the newspaper reports had placed them."

Point is: there are many similar stories of Confederate raids into Union areas.
Always their commanders' purposes included securing supplies and destroying Union assets.

[central_va]

Hardly Shermanesque.

[BroJoeK]

tanknetter: "True Union states and territories, or border states and territories?"

First of all, all Union states and territories were "true", regardless of what some Confederates may have wished.
None ever voted to secede, and all supplied more troops to the Union than Confederacy.

Second, all Border States had significant slave-holding populations, but they were distinct minorities, and were unable to control either politically or militarily.
They could however challenge the majority Unionists, and did so, often with very destructive results.

In some cases these were comparable to "scorched earth" policies practiced by some Union forces at war's end.

[tanknetter]

First of all, all Union states and territories were "true", regardless of what some Confederates may have wished.

I think you may be misunderstanding my use of the word "true". What I meant were Union states where there wasn't essentially an internal insurrection going on to flip the state to the side of the Confederacy.

The "Civil War" as we generally recognize it was really a war of secession. The Confederates never had any intention of overthrowing the Federal Government, they just wanted separation. On the other hand the border states WERE in many ways fighting real Civil Wars, where the Confederates were actually seeking to overthrow the established government using military/paramilitary force.

There wasn't the kind of clearly defined our territory/their territory mentality like existed elsewhere, and particularly in the East, and a lot of the fighting - exceptionally bitter and viscous - took place outside the scope of control of the CSA leadership and senior generals.

[BroJoeK]

man_in_tx: "Well, FRiend, I will give you that Robert E. Lee, et al, were “traitors” to the US when you give me that George Washington, et al, were “traitors” to Great Britain."

So what exactly is your problem, pal, in confessing that of course Washington & company were traitors to Great Britain.
What did you fantasize the Revolutionary War was all about -- a picnic in the park?

On signing the Declaration of Independence, Benjamin Franklin famously quipped:

"Now we must all hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly all hang separately."

Why else do you suppose they went through all the trouble of specifically defining "treason" in their new Constitution?

man_in_tx: "We celebrate the right to secede from oppressive central Government.
In my view, the Confederates exercised precisely the same prerogative in choosing to secede from the Union that the original Thirteen Colonies did in choosing to secede from the King’s Realm."

First, we certainly don't "celebrate" the unhappy necessity of sometimes waging war against powers whose continuing oppressions are unacceptable -- be it "taxation without representation" or military attacks on the US or allies.

But, regardless of Confederate myths the contrary, the two situations -- 1776 and 1860 -- were entirely different.
For example, the Declaration of Independence came after many years of a long train of abuses listed item by item, including:

"He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people."

The various Reasons for Declarations of Secession provided only one serious item: the perceived threat to slavery represented by the constitutionally elected anti-slavery Republican President-elect Abraham Lincoln.

man_in_tx: "Moreover, I have to ask you. What were the Yanks thinking when they actually FORGAVE a bunch of untrustworthy traitors? Answer?
I honestly believe that down deep they knew these were no traitors."

First of all, a certain Robert Kennedy was captured & hanged as a Confederate traitor in 1865, for his role in a plot to burn down much of New York City.
But nobody I know of who served in uniform was ever tried or hanged as a traitor.

Second, the issue was in doubt for several years, but was eventually decided by the magnanimity of leaders like Ulysses Grant and Tennessee-born President Andrew Johnson.
In Grant's eyes, his deal with Lee was: you surrender unconditionally, and there will be no military trials for treason.

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "Hardly Shermanesque."

Sure, but that was 1863.
On their third assault on Chambersburg, in 1864, predating Sherman's burning of Atlanta by several months, Confederates burned the city when it refused to pay a ransom.

The burning of Lawrence Kansas came more than a year before Sherman marched into Georgia.

So Confederates were "Shermanesque" before Sherman.

[central_va]

Trying to ennoble a POS like W. T. Sherman is going to be pretty hard thing to do. But keep trying. We all need windmills to tilt at.

[central_va]

“Chimneyville” is the nickname for the city of Jackson, Mississippi. The name was coined after Union forces under General Sherman burned the city to the ground in July, 1863, leaving only the brick chimneys standing from what had once been elegant houses. The Chimneyville record label was a subsidiary of Malaco Records, first distributed by Cotillion, then Atco, then TK. Malaco was started in 1962 as a booking agency in Jackson, Mississippi, by Mitchell Malouf, Tommy Couch, and Wolf Stephenson. They also opened the Malaco recording studio in 1967, mostly recording local artists and radio jingles, but licensed an album and a number of singles by Mississippi Fred McDowell to Capitol.

[central_va]

General Sherman appointed Brig. Gen. Joseph A. Mower to the position of military governor of Jackson and ordered him to destroy all facilities that could benefit the war effort. With the discovery of a large supply of rum, it was impossible for Mower’s Brigade to keep order among the mass of soldiers and camp followers, and many acts of pillage took place. Grant left Jackson on the afternoon of May 15 and proceeded to Clinton, Mississippi. On the morning of May 16 he sent orders for Sherman to move out of Jackson as soon as the destruction was complete. Sherman marched almost immediately, clearing the city by 10 a.m.. By nightfall on May 16, Sherman’s corps reached Bolton, Mississippi, and the Confederacy had reoccupied what remained of Jackson. Jackson had been destroyed as a transportation center and the war industries were crushed

[Ditto]

The "Civil War" as we generally recognize it was really a war of secession. The Confederates never had any intention of overthrowing the Federal Government, they just wanted separation.

It was a Revolution. George Washington and the founders of this nation didn't want to depose King George III or overthrow the British Parliament. They just said enough of British rule in America.

Washington and the rest were all in rebellion against the established government and guilty of treason under British law and if they had ever been caught, they would have hanged for treason against the Crown.

The word "Secession" that gets tossed around confuses the issue and pretends that it had some legal basis. It didn't.

The only legitimate secession from a contract is when both parties agree to it or a court of law decides that the contract is null and void. Absent that, it is a contract violation or in the case of nations, a revolution.

The Civil War was a misguided revolution for the worst of causes, and thankfully, it failed.

Unlike what the British would have done as a matter of course eighty seven years earlier to the leaders of such a revolution, none of the Confederate leaders were hanged.

[rockrr]

I wonder if they brought marshmallows?

[central_va]

Apparently they found the rebel rum cache.

[Ditto]

Trying to ennoble a POS like W. T. Sherman is going to be pretty hard thing to do.

The Germans would say the same thing about Patton or Eisenhower I'd assume. They both destroyed a lot of German cities.

[BroJoeK]

central_va: "Trying to ennoble a POS like W. T. Sherman is going to be pretty hard thing to do.
But keep trying. We all need windmills to tilt at."

Then you're missing my point, which is not to "enoble" Sherman, but simply to point out that war is h*ll (best not to get into it), both sides were generally very well behaved, especially compared to other wars and times, but also that both practiced pillage and destruction in the other's territories.

Your complaining about Sherman is equivalent to German civilians complaining about allied bombing in WWII.
By today's standards of precision guided "shock and awe" smart-bombs, they were unnecessarily destructive and immoral.

So today's defense of those past actions is similar:

1. At the time it was considered necessary, and both sides did it.

2. It demonstrably shortened the war, and therefore saved not only US but also opponents' civilian lives.

3. Today's military doctrines are quite different, focusing on precision aiming and data-sorting bad-guys from their presumed innocent civilian populations.
   But there's no way today's technical standards can apply to our ancestors.

But while we're on this subject, did you ever notice how much longer today's wars last than those of the past?
Did you ever wonder how fighting a "kinder and gentler" form of war doesn't seem to convince our enemies to stop fighting as quickly as the brutal older methods did?

[BroJoeK]

tanknetter: "The "Civil War" as we generally recognize it was really a war of secession.
The Confederates never had any intention of overthrowing the Federal Government, they just wanted separation."

In fact, from Day One, secession and Confederate government were all about overthrowing Federal Government in states where Slave-Power operated.

In the seven Deep South states (South Carolina to Texas), where nearly half of all households owned slaves, there was never much doubt about popular will regarding slavery -- though Union leaders like Lincoln did believe those states retained enough love of Union to overcome secessionist impulses.
And regardless of popularity, unilateral-secession remained unconstitutional, illegal and illegitimate in Unionist eyes.

But, in four Upper South states (Virginia to Arkansas) with only about 25% slave-holding households, the issue was much more closely decided.
All of those states had large areas of few-to-no slave-holders who first opposed secession and later supplied troops for Union forces.
Those states could well be classified as "contested", and the war there, by your definition "civil war".

Indeed, one of those "contested" states split apart, forming West Virginia, while another, Eastern Tennessee attempted the same, unsuccessfully.

And the four Border States (Delaware to Missouri) had even fewer slave-holding families, typically around 10%.
There Slave-Power's political clout was not enough to overcome love of Union, and so Confederates engaged in little more than guerrilla war.
Civil War, yes, but also a war to overthrow Federal government in those states.

Beyond civil war within southern slave-holding states, the Confederacy also invaded & waged war in northern Union states and territories, including Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Kansas, Oklahoma, New Mexico and on a smaller scale several others further removed: Arizona, Colorado, California, Vermont and (we now see) even New York.

That's why any claims that "Confederates never had any intention of overthrowing the Federal Government" are really just disingenuous.
The truth is that the Confederacy was 100% as aggressive toward the Union as it could be.
If it failed to invade a certain state -- i.e., Illinois in 1862 -- the reason was not lack of ambition or plans, but rather their physical inability, in this case resulting from Grant's victories at Forts Henry and Donaldson.

In another example, Lee's 1863 march into Pennsylvania was not originally intended to be just a quick in-and-out.
What Lee intended was to set up a permanent base of operations at the great railroad center in Harrisburg, PA.
This was to be his major bargaining chip in negotiating Union surrender.

The same rule applies to the oft-repeated claim that "slavery was dying out anyway."
Yes, but the whole point of the Confederacy was to protect and expand its "peculiar institution".
A militarily successful Confederacy would become the home-base for expansions into the Caribbean and beyond: a new world-power "Empire of slavery".
It was slavery's "last best hope on earth", and when it failed, slavery failed with it.
But had it emerged successful, the world today would be a much different place.

tanknetter: "a lot of the fighting - exceptionally bitter and viscous - took place outside the scope of control of the CSA leadership and senior generals."

Sure, but also some within their control, of which all three assaults on Chambersburg, PA, and the Lawrence (Kansas) Massacre are examples.

[central_va]

The vote was razor thin in Virgina, with the secession just barely passing 114,260 to 20,352. A real sqeaker.

Counties and by Whom Represented

County	For Secession	Against Secession	Now in West Virginia
Accomac	Not Found
Albemarle	2308	1
Alexandria	958	48
Alleghany	554	12
Amelia	472	0
Amherst	1492	0
Appomattox	805	0
Augusta	3130	10
Barbour	857	626	Yes
Bath	403	2
Bedford	2329	1
Berkeley	508	1303	Yes
Boone	317	226	Yes
Botetourt	1207	2
Braxton	553	114	Yes
Brooke	109	721	Yes
Brunswick	840	0
Buchanan	Not Found
Buckingham	1062	0
Cabell	232	882	Yes
Calhoun	279	81	Yes
Campbell	2504	0
Caroline	1245	0
Carroll	867	130
Charles City	311	1
Charlotte	883	0
Chesterfield	1421	0
Clarke	Not Found
Clay	102	102	Yes
Craig	Not found
Culpeper	1051	0
Cumberland	523	0
Dinwiddie	805	1
Doddridge	Not Found		Yes
Elizabeth City	343	6
Essex	581	0
Fairfax	942	288
Fauquier	1809	4
Fayette	508	223
Floyd	896	20
Fluvanna	880	0
Franklin	1787	3
Frederick	1503	359
Giles	1067	0
Gilmer	338	186	Yes
Gloucester	860	1
Goochland	673	0
Grayson	1077	0
Greenbrier	1016	110	Yes
Greene	604	0
Greensville	322	0
Halifax	1747	0
Hampshire	1110	700	Yes
Hancock	23	743	Yes
Hanover	1240	0
Hardy	768	538	Yes
Harrison	614	1691	Yes
Henrico	1712	0
Henry	925	1
Highland	568	5
Isle of Wight	832	0
Jackson	Not Found		Yes
James City	239	0
Williamsburg	135	0
Jefferson	813	365	Yes
Kanawha	520	1697	Yes
King and Queen	873	0
King George	478	1
King William	496	0
Lancaster	432	0
Lee	1005	170
Lewis	422	736	Yes
Logan	518	63	Yes
Loudoun	1621	726
Louisa	1167	0
Lunenburg	905	0
McDowell	196	17	Yes
Madison	833	0
Marion	Not Found		Yes
Marshall	142	1993	Yes
Mason	119	1841	Yes
Mathews	645	0
Mecklenburg	1286	0
Mercer	871	67	Yes
Middlesex	491	2
Monroe	1189	79	Yes
Monogoalia	110	2148	Yes
Montgomery	1395	0
Morgan	126	533	Yes
Nansemond	1012	0
Nelson	1164	0
Norfolk	2001	158
Norfolk City	1172	6
Northampton	505	0
Northumberland	548	47
Nottoway	374	0
Ohio	157	3368	Yes
Orange	853	0
Page	1099	4
Patrick	Not Found
Pendleton	696	131	Yes
Pittsylvania	2469	0
Pleasants	158	303	Yes
Pocahontas	360	13
Powhatan	451	0
Preston	63	2256	Yes
Prince Edward	688	0
Prince George	364	2
Prince William	841	38
Princess Anne	798	0
Pulaski	603	0
Putnam	216	695	Yes
Raleigh	229	183	Yes
Randolph	Not Found		Yes
Rappahannock	943	0
Richmond	556	14
Ritchie	Not Found		Yes
Roane	Not Found		Yes
Roanoke	853	0
Rockbridge	1728	1
Rockingham	3012	22
Russell	832	89
Scott	842	139
Shenandoah	2513	5
Smyth	1281	0
Spotsylvania	1323	0
Stafford	701	4
Surry	353	0
Sussex	497	1
Taylor	Not Found		Yes
Tazewell	1406	0
Tucker	106	54	Yes
Tyler	125	880	Yes
Upshur	306	701	Yes
Warren	675	3
Warwick	Not Found
Washington	1907	20
Wayne	204	427	Yes
Webster	129	26	Yes
Westmoreland	667	1
Wetzel	180	790	Yes
Wirt	150	507	Yes
Wise	419	38
Wood	257	1995	Yes
Wyoming	109	105	Yes
Wythe	1168	1
York	Not Found
Total	114,260	20,352
Army	10363	38
Total	124,896	20,390