[BroJoeK]

FredZarguna: "Sorry, buddy. I love farmers. I personally come from a long line of farmers...
But they're only our friends as long as they keep getting money from the government and you can't convince them otherwise"

Oh, dear, do you ever sound confused, but where do we even begin to straighten you out?
How about here?

• First of all, if your typical farmer is not a "real Republican" then there's no such thing as a "real Republican" -- there are only those who admit to being Democrats versus those who pretend otherwise.
  So put that in your pipe and smoke it. ;-)

• Second, of the nation's 2.1 million farms, 60% receive no Federal subsidies at all.
  So for you to claim they somehow won't give up their subsidies, is a bit, ahem, uninformed.

• Third, the key point which everyone pretends to not understand is that virtually all Federal "subsidies" go to the highest income farms -- the top 10% of all farms receive 80% of all "subsidies".

• Fourth, and this takes some digging, the total value of all farm "subsidies" equates almost exactly to total taxes paid by farmers -- so those who pay the most in taxes receive the most back in "subsidies", but no group, on average, receives more in "subsidies" than they pay in taxes.

• So, finally, farm "subsidies" in no way equate to other government welfare programs, but are in fact what they may or may not say directly: government tax incentives, used to skew the market and encourage certain categories of production over others.
  As such, they are equivalent to other incentives in other industries -- "green" energy comes to mind...

Bottom line: of course those large farmers you typically deal with want their "subsidies" to continue, not so much because they couldn't live without them, but rather because so many other industries receive similar preferential treatment, why should farmers be singled out for punishment?

The obvious solution is to reduce all tax rates, in exchange for eliminating government market-skewing "subsidies", a solution most Republican farmers would happily accept, but which would eliminate the Democrat government's role in picking winners and rewarding their backers.
So that's when you'd expose the difference between real Republicans and Democrats who just pretend to be something else.

[FredZarguna]

You don't know what you're talking about.

First, I don't deal primarily with large farms. Please go back and actually read my post. Corporate "Farmers" don't go to DHIA banquets or Holstein Association meetings or Grange Fairs.

Second, you're just talking about direct payment subsidies. Unfortunately, that is just a small trickle of the flood of free money available to farmers. All of the following are government services which farmers receive. ALL of them should be done away with.

• Federal orders. These cover cotton, tobacco, dairy, produce, livestock and seed, and poultry. They guarantee minimum prices. A minimum price guarantee is a subsidy. The price supports are paid by taxpayers. If you don't like subsidy, call it what it is: welfare.
• County, State and Federal Extension. These provide FREE consulting, literature, and research to farmers; in many large agriculture states, they also provide FREE seminars, farm visits, and business analysis services.
• Special Exemptions from Anti-Trust Laws for Agricultural Associations and Co-ops available to no other business.
• FREE Genetic improvement, genomic, production, and other research provided FREE by USDA ARS/AIPL. In other industries, businesses have to pay for their own R & D.
• FREE agricultural research performed at Land Grant Universities paid for by State Departments of Agriculture. Again: this is a subsidy. Most businesses have to perform their own R & D.
• Crop insurance. ALL crop insurance is federally subsidized. Typically, covered losses averaged more than a $1 back for every $1 farmers paid in premiums in 19 of the past 20 years. Not even BANKERS get as good a deal on insurance coverage.
• A minimum level of crop insurance, called CAT insurance, is available to all farmers regardless of size at no premium cost (ALL premiums are paid by the federal government). What other business can buy product insurance and pay no premium? [Hint: none].
• Buy-Back insurance, and government sponsored and subsidized futures markets. Almost all major agricultural states have these. What other businessmen can get the government to guarantee 100% loss against their product with government assistance?

Here are just a few of the services provided specifically by USDA to farmers at taxpayer expense. If it makes you happy to pretend they aren't subsidies because they aren't called subsidies, fine.

• Farm Loans
• Housing Assistance
• Rural Development Loan Assistance
• Beginning Farmers and Ranchers
• Business Development
• Community Facilities
• Utility Services
• Crop and Livestock Insurance
• Federal State Marketing Improvement Program
• Specialty Crop Block Grant Program
• The Farmers Market Promotion Program
• Organic Cost Share Program

Oh dear: You are the one who is confused. Our Farmers work in the most Socialist part of our economy, and they have for generations. Every attempt that Republicans have ever made to bring them into free markets has been met by the most vicious demagoguery and recrimination.

And I will say one more thing: Agriculture is one of -- if not THE -- BIGGEST enablers of illegal immigration as well. Outside of the Amish properties I visit, I have not been on a single farm in the last ten years that did not rely exclusively on illegal labor in their milking parlors. NOT ONE, and fruit harvest, even on very small family farms, is trending in exactly the same direction.