Posted on 12/15/2012 7:57:59 AM PST by marktwain
Backers of laws that let pretty much all law-abiding carry concealed guns in public places often argue that these laws will sometimes enable people to stop mass shootings. Opponents occasionally ask: If that’s so, what examples can one give of civilians armed with guns stopping such shootings? Sometimes, I hear people asking if even one such example can be found, or saying that they haven’t heard even one such example.
Naturally, such examples will be rare, partly because mass shootings are rare, partly because many mass shootings happen in supposedly “gun-free” zones (such as schools, universities, or private property posted with a no-guns sign) in which gun carrying isn’t allowed, and partly for other reasons. Moreover, at least some examples are contested, because it might be unclear — as you’ll see below — whether the shooter had been planning to kill more people when he was stopped. But here are instances that I have seen, not counting killings stopped by people who were off-duty police officers (or police officers from other jurisdictions) at the time of the shooting.
1. In Pearl, Mississippi in 1997, 16-year-old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned to death his mother at home, then killed two students and injured seven at his high school. As he was leaving the school, he was stopped by Assistant Principal Joel Myrick, who had gone out to get a handgun from his car. I have seen sources that state that Woodham was on the way to Pearl Junior High School to continue shooting, though I couldn’t find any contemporaneous news articles that so state.
2. In Edinboro, Pennsylvania in 1996, 14-year-old Andrew Wurst shot and killed a teacher at a school dance, and shot and injured several other students. He had just left the dance hall, carrying his gun — possibly to attack more people, though the stories that I’ve seen are unclear — when he was confronted by the dance hall owner James Strand, who lived next door and kept a shotgun at home. It’s not clear whether Wurst was planning to kill others, would have gotten into a gun battle with the police, or would have otherwise killed more people had Strand not stopped him.
3. In Winnemucca, Nevada in 2008, Ernesto Villagomez killed two people and wounded two others in a bar filled with three hundred people. He was then shot and killed by a patron who was carrying a gun (and had a concealed carry license). It’s not clear whether Villagomez would have killed more people; the killings were apparently the result of a family feud, and I could see no information on whether Villagomez had more names on his list, nor could one tell whether he would have killed more people in trying to evade capture.
4. In Colorado Springs in 2007, Matthew Murray killed four people at a church. He was then shot several times by Jeanne Assam, a church member, volunteer security guard, and former police officer (she had been dismissed by a police department 10 years before, and to my knowledge hadn’t worked as a police officer since). Murray, knocked down and badly wounded, killed himself; it is again not clear whether he would have killed more people had he not been wounded, but my guess is that he would have.
So it appears that civilians armed with guns are sometimes willing to intervene to stop someone who had just committed a mass shooting in public. In what fraction of mass shootings would such interventions happen, if gun possession were allowed in the places where the shootings happen? We don’t know. In what fraction would interventions prevent more killings and injuries, as opposed to capturing or killing the murderer after he’s already done? We don’t know. In what fraction would interventions lead to more injuries to bystanders? Again, we don’t know. Finally, always keep in mind that mass shootings in public places should not be the main focus in the gun debate, whether for gun control or gun decontrol: They on average account for much less than 1% of all homicides in the U.S., and are unusually hard to stop through gun control laws (since the killer is bent on committing a publicly visible murder and is thus unlikely to be much deterred by gun control law, or by the prospect of encountering an armed bystander).
Still, people have asked for examples of some shootings in which a civilian armed with a gun intervened and brought down the shooter — so here they are.
There is a danger in becoming estranged from the normal, in this case normal concepts of courage and bravery. There can come a temptation to embrace a perverted form of it laden with the smell of evil. Why do we have more kids that like to play Grand Theft Auto than who aspire to be good cops or soldiers?
Add to this the reality that getting a concealed carry permit in some areas of our nation is next to impossible, and it's spitting in the face of reality to try to do a fair study on the ability of concealed carry to actually make a difference.
If people in the office yesterday had been armed, this shooter would have faced opposition. I defy anyone to explain how these people were safer without guns.
John Lott ‘More guns, Less crime’ reported that ccw laws reduce the number and degree of spree murders.
Thanks. I borrowed that figure -— very impressive.
Donutman, the liberal idea so often is to create this little cloistered peacenik utopia, bereft of any possibility of hazard, let alone the need to think about it. Which often seems to be perking along well until it gets visited by the real world.
1966, University of Texas. Charles Whitman climbed the 28 story university tower and began shooting people.
Soon citizens on the ground grabbed their rifles and returned fire.
An off duty deputy sheriff and two civilians climbed the tower and ended the rampage
49 were shot before the sniper was killed.
Today the police would have spent hours clearing the area (and maybe arresting those that fired back) and then assemble a hundred men swat team before they decide to drop a bomb on the tower killing the shooter as well as destroying the building.
The death toll would have been much higher
It is interesting but the next story on FR after this one is about a hospital in Birmingham where the shooter wounded three before being shot to death by an armed person. So add this to the list.
I can point out it could have something to do with a lying usurper who not only once won an election through fraud did it again, and he is a loyalist to Islam. And very soon wants to make it a crime to criticize Islam, in effect is pushing the culture of embracing Islam and its culture, an evil corrupt culture that is just the kind of dark cult many would turn to, because its “cool”.
Blame Obama, may be illogical but we cannot keep on putting band aids on a brain tumor for America.
Someone on Facebook posted that the 2nd Amendment was created for “bows and arrows”. I kid you not!
I have a rule about getting political on there, and I almost broke it because stupidity like that was just too much.
That probably hits pretty close to home...
These troubles were with us before Obama sprang on the scene, and will be with us afterwards (if the Lord tarries).
Less so now, as I have moved out of Ill Noise to Tennessee and need to update my Freeploc.
It’s easy for a citified yokel like me to point and laugh at the “hicks” in this Nashville suburb with every other block sporting a firing range if not a pawn shop or a BBQ joint or a TSC. All I can say is yeehaw darn, I envy these folks. They don’t know what they’re not missing by not being in Ill Noise.
Gun control advocates are inherently stupid - assuming criminals will follow laws. They should just pass a law saying it is illegal to shoot children and children in schools. It would have the same effect.
You didn’t say how many dogs might have been killed!
I agree but I still think when you have an eveil leader of the nation you will have many seeking to be the best at being more so evil trying to prove their faith.
Let me get this straight:
When the Indians attack the fort,
the Cavalry wants to take away the guns from the Cowboys.
Brilliant!
I saw this yesterday, and almost posted it elsewhere. Then it struck me that the printing and wording are way too good for a six-year-old. I like it anyway.
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