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To: Cronos
nice discussion : )  Thank you Cronos.  That was nice of you to say.  I have appreciated the exchange also.

First, lets talk about the thing we agree on -- the French suck : )  LOL, I'm thinking we agree on more than that.

I used to be a francophile when I was learning French in high school but then I learnt more about how the French have screwed over christendom ever since Philip the Fair.  I'm not a big fan of the French either.  I try to keep that in check, because there are probably a lot of great French people today.  Studying it's history though, it's not all that difficult to come up with reasons to dislike France.  I am also forced to look at what the U. S. populace has signed on to in recent presidential elections though.  Many of us think this is terrible.  I would suspect many in France find their own government smelly at times.

Perhaps the biggest problem I see in France these days, is the amount of Islamic immigration they have allowed.  Couldn't France see any problem with this in historical context?

They screwed over the knights Templars, who were defenders of Christendom.  Then during the 30 years war, France, supposedly Catholic, supported the Calvinists/Lutherans against the Catholic Austrians, just to weaken the Hapsburgs and at the same time courted the Moslem Ottomans.  It's also my understanding that about the time of the French Revolution, the French pretty much signed off all religion.  It was a fairly chaotic period and some problems remained long after.  You may disagree with this.  If so I'd be interested in your understanding on the subject.

If they hadn't done this, the Austrians would have pushed out the Turks from Europe in the 1690s itself.  Then of course Napoleon and 1914, 1939, 1955 etc.  I have a rough understanding of the activities of the Knights Templars, but there's more to know, and I realize that.  They wielded considerable power at one point, and this caused the French government to respect them.  Unfortunately, that respect turned to fear rather than admiration or appreciation.  I think that was a mistake, especially the way it was handled.  I can't say I don't understand the French government's fear though.  You may understand an aspect of this dynamic, that I don't, and find the French government's reaction to be even more uncalled for than I do.

And don't forget that Vietnam was triggered by the French not leaving their colonies in time (compare the former colonies of the English to that of the French -- the US, India, Canada, Australi etc. may have a fierce rivalry with England, may even fight it, but they have a grudging respect, or at worst a love-hate relationship -- in contrast nearly all the French colonies detest France)  Although I am aware of the French presence in Vietnam prior to the U. S. being there, I'm not knowledgeable about what exactly transpired during the French presence there.
  Your point about French colonies is interesting.  I hadn't given that much though.  I do realize that most of England's colonies do have an association that is as you described, and quite warm at times.  You didn't mention India in there.  It's still a relative friend of Britain isn't it.

Take care Cronos.

166 posted on 11/19/2012 11:29:46 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Hurricane Sandy..., a week later and 48 million Americans still didn't have power.)
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To: DoughtyOne
the Vietnam war -- the French were kicked out by the Japanese

But then the Vietminh were hte ones who defeated the Japanese in 1945, and then the French just walked in and seized control

So in may ways the communists were the freedom fighter as the non-Communist parties had been decimated by the French -- unlike the Brits who realized that some political freedom can ease tensions (as the Brits did in India with the foundation of the Indian national Congress)...

172 posted on 11/19/2012 11:05:18 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DoughtyOne; stanne
About France after the revolution -- Stanne pointed out to me the story of St. John Vianney (the Curę of Ars). I found this on wikipedia
the Cure of Ars -- thank you for pointing out that information. I found this on wikipedia As parish priest, Vianney realized that the Revolution's aftermath had resulted in religious ignorance, due to the destruction of the Catholic Church in France. At the time, Sundays in rural areas were spent working in the fields, or dancing and drinking in taverns. Vianney was astonished, especially since Sundays were meant to be reserved for religion.

The Old Regime in France was too tied to the Church. Note that in all of the countries where the Church (whether Catholic or Anglican or Calvinist or Lutheran) was tied to the government), in all of those places, the Church has been weakened severely

in contrast in Italy where the Church was strong but seen as an outsider to the government and in Poland where even in the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth (the largest country in Europe from 1410 until 1634 and one of the largest until its partitions in 1773-1792) was one where Churches were held in importance but was not dominant

In France post the excesses of Louis XIV, the people turned against everything old.

As an aside in 1783 the population of France was 25% of the population of Europe at 24 million people. Italy was another 18 million, but the UK was 7 million, Germany was 18 million, Poland-Lithuania was 8 million, Russia including its Asian parts (which were small at that time) was 12 million, the lowland countries were 8 million

France had this population explosion but did not have any people's rights.

Incidently do note that the first "people's revolution" was in the UK and the slaughter that followed and the rise of a dictator (Oliver Cromwell) who threatened other parts of Europe mirrors the role of Napoleon 150 years later and Stalin 250 years later...

Religion was banned in many places and Churches were converted into "temples to the higher righteousness"

for 20 years Christianity was hit and in many places -- especially the north, it never recovered in France

The Church tried to push back in the 1880s but due to the unforeseen passing of laicite in the early 1900s, the anti-clerical movement reached its peak and that's what we see now in France

In Germany the destruction started with the forced Prussian Union when the elector-King of Prussia (a Calvinist) forcibly made the Calvinists and Lutherans unite and then due to the insurmountable differences, this essentially made the Union Church a branch of the government. Toss in Bismarck's anti-Catholic Kulturkampf and the Germans were ripe for Aryan Christianity -- it was ordered by the government after all...

In the UK, I don't really understand it at all and see no explanation beyond the flower-power generation (but that's also very vague)

Anyway, back to the topic, post the Revolution, the French were signed off religion, forcibly in many cases and religion died off with the killing of religious people etc. It recovered to some extent by the late 1800s and early 1900s, but then WWI and WWII struck and then the 60s and from the 60s onwards we see the massive decline.

177 posted on 11/20/2012 12:14:39 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DoughtyOne; stanne
The importing of Moslem labor into France and into Germany and England was utter insanity.

I don't know why they didn't realize their own history

They could have imported Christians from Africa and Asia or other parts of Europe if they needed cheap labor

I don't understand it except if I look at it as a result of the secularization of life in France-Germany-the UK.

178 posted on 11/20/2012 12:15:04 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DoughtyOne
the Knights Templars date from a time when Europeans didn't think of themselves in the nation-state sense but as part of Christendom with the twin pillars of the Emperor and the Pope

The Knights Templars were a professional standing Army along with the Knights Hospitallers etc.

The French kingdom until Phillip the Fair (under the senior house of the Capetians) was little more than a cult of personality and with control over only a small part of France -- the Angevin kings controlled the entire western coast until King John's time. diverting -- the Angevin kings in the period 1140 - 1400 built up an impressive set of holdings -- they ruled in England and controlled Scotland, Ireland and Wales, they ruled in Normandy, Gascony, Anjou (the entire Atlantic coast of France), they ruled the house of Aragon and all of eastern Spain, they ruled over Sardinia, Sicily, southern Italy. One branch became king of Hungary and of Poland and his daughter, Jadwiga married Duke Jagiełło of Lithuania to form the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth

Philip the Fair created a bureaucracy and combatted this. He created much of the "idee France" but he needed money to do this -- and the Templars had this. In the end it was a sordid affair to get money and he destroyed the finest standing army in Europe to get it

The curse put upon his house also held and after him, the senior line of the Capetians died out....

179 posted on 11/20/2012 12:21:45 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DoughtyOne
India is a close friend of Britain. It's got a love-hate relationship, but one in which it more or less accepts the past

The best European conquerors were the Russians,Portuguese, Brits and Spanish in that order -- even those who hated them like the Irish or Indians -- grudgingly took some of their standards as their own (* in Russia's case, note that this is actually the empire of Muscowy and it conquered the Finnic lands to the north and conquered the other Rus lands to the south and west and then conquered Kazan, Astrakhan, Crimea from the Tartars - or as some say assimilated with the Tartars and then conquered the native peoples of Siberia -- they still rule their empire)

The French were mediocre and the worst were the Dutch and Belgians -- their former colonies hate them for the utter rape of these lands

180 posted on 11/20/2012 12:25:16 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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