"No perfect game for you"
Posted on 09/24/2012 9:05:50 PM PDT by FoxPro
Your analysis on this catch on the last play.
Not bad for a part-time job. The work about 6 months per year and when they are working that only includes about 20 - 25 actual working days. I think that is well paid.
That is obviously not true - Let’s say a defender catches the ball all alone, then as he is being tackled 5 yards down the field, the receiver rushes in and puts his hands on the ball - it is definitely NOT ruled a completion.
Possession in this case is the same as other cases. Once possessed, it must clearly change possession - the defender clearly caught the ball initially, and thus possessed it. At that point, Tate had to clearly change the possession to himself before the defender hit the ground, not merely put his hands on the ball. A little bit of careful thought will answer the question - otherwise, all a defender must do if a pass is intercepted is get his hands on the ball to establish joint possession.
Initial touching of the ball is of no consequence, true - but initial CATCHING or possessing of the ball is everything. “The GB player was still upright when Tate grabbed the ball” EXACTLY - therefore, the possession was NOT simultanious, as the defender possessed the ball BEFORE Tate grabbed it.
Yes, but merely grabbing the ball after the defender has it does not constitute simultaneous possession. This term is intended to mean they both caught the ball at the same time, and both retained possession until they hit the ground. If one player grabs the ball, and while in the air the other player puts his hands on the ball it is NOT simultaneous. The defender must RETAIN possession until he hits the ground, and nobody disputes that the defender kept the ball. Hands on the ball is not possession and putting hands on the ball AFTER the defender has pulled the ball in is not simultaneous.
“If a pass is caught simultaneously..”
si·mul·ta·ne·ous Show Spelled[sahy-muhl-tey-nee-uhs, sim-uhl-] Show IPA adjective existing, occurring, or operating at the same time; concurrent: simultaneous movements; simultaneous translation.
The ball clearly was NOT caught at the same time. Once caught, the catcher must retain control until he comes down - the defender did so, regardless of Tate coming in AFTER the catch (not simultaneously, or at the same time) and getting his hands on the ball. Establishing contact after the catch does not constitute simultaneous possession.
If the Packers take the safety then it’s 12-9, and all Seattle needs is a Field Goal to tie the game and send it into overtime. So, I disagree with you about that. All Seattle would have had to do is get to the GB 40 to attempt a 57-yard FG.
You are confusing gaining control, simultaneously catching and retaining control.
The person catching the ball must gain control (catch the ball) and retain control (keep the ball) all the way to the ground for it to be called a reception or interceptioon. That’s the gain and retain part. Gain happens first - that is what must be simultaneous. Retain is what happens next, and they both must retain simultaneous possession - THEN the rule comes into play.
If a player gains control of (catches) the ball, but is hit and loses the ball before coming down, it is ruled incomplete. You’re statement that he can’t gain control until both feet touch the ground is just false. He must RETAIN control until such time as he touches the ground for it to be ruled a completion (or interception). But the simultaneous possession rule talks about GAINING control at the same time. If the rule meant what you say it means, it would talk about GAINING control, and another player holding or touching the ball SUBSEQUENT to the initial catch and BEFORE hitting the ground. That’s not how it is stated. It is stated as catching simultaneously and both retaining control.
Once a player gains control of (catches) the ball, another player must clearly take possession AWAY from the first player to possess it - regardless of how possession was gained in the first place.
Simultaneous possession ONLY apples when both players CATCH the ball at the same time.
Here is what happened:
Defender CATCHES the ball.
Defender pulls the ball into his body
Receiver gets his hands on the ball after the defender has caught and pulled the ball into his body (simultaneous possession rule does not apply).
Defender keeps the ball held to his body as he hits the ground. (Receiver did NOT establish possession by TAKING the ball away from the defender - remember, simultaneous possession rule does not apply)
The official calling touchdown blew the call.
The replay officials could not (by rule, as I understand it) overturn the possession ruling - which was clearly incorrect.
There was no catch until both feet were on the ground. Tate had both feet on the ground and was touching the ball. Jennings did not have both feet on the ground before Tate touched the ball. All you need to do is have a hand on the ball which was what the officials saw and ruled it a touchdown.
You could not be more wrong. Simultaneous possession rule clealy states simultaneous catch.
For the catch to be ruled a completion or an interception the player must retain possession until coming down (butt, back, feet). But for simultaneous possession, the CATCH must be made at the same time.
“Jennings did not have both feet on the ground before Tate TOUCHED (my emphasis) the ball. All you need is to have a hand on the ball...” That is most certainly not true. To make a completion (or interception) you must first catch (gain control) then retain control. For the simultaneous possession rule to be in effect, both players must SIMULTANEOUSLY gain contral (catch the ball) and both must RETAIN shared control. If either element is missing - if they don’t both catch it at the same time, or if they don’t both retain constant control until the play is dead - the rule does not apply. Since they both did not catch the ball at the same time, the rule is not in effect. Tate must then clearly take control of the ball away from the defender before they hit the ground (ending the play) and he did not.
A person can catch a ball, then lose control before it can be ruled a completion. You are confusing the meanings of words used to describe moments in the play (...simultaneously catch...) with the official end result (completion).
The rule says: “If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control.” If your interpretation was correct, there would not be the phrase “...and both players RETAIN it...” (emphasis mine) nor “...if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint contro.”
The rule states the exact situation - a player gained control and an opponent subsequently gained joint control - ergo, simultaneous possession rule DOES NOT apply.
Yeah, a caller on the local sports radio this morning brought that up and too and got your answer.
Frankly, I didn’t know that. Thanks.
You would make a better official than the ones at that game. I now have a complete understanding.
Thanks.
I agree that holy roller was an incomplete forward pass and should have been called intentional grounding. Ref must not have seen the throwing motion. Once the ball was in play under the rules of the time, swatting or scooping the ball forward was legal, but again the ball was only loose because Stabler deliberately threw it forward and downward.
BTW, the Raiders have been knocked out of apparent playoff victories three times because of missed or questionable calls in crucial late fourth quarter situations. I can’t think of any other team that has had such “bad luck.”
Cheers...
“I can’t think of any other team that has had such “bad luck.” “
Yawn. How many rings do the Raiders own already? Please. I can only wish the Chargers had as much ‘bad luck’ as you have had.
"No perfect game for you"
F__k it. I don’t care. Spent my whole life being s__t on because of my geographic location. “You’re in Seattle, so you ain’t worth a s__t”. F__k that. I’m tired of being s__t on because of where I live. You don’t like it? F___ you and the horse you rode in on. I live here, I’ll defend it. Live near Seattle and proud of it. Doin’t like it? Go to Hell.
Hehe. You’re always welcome to join the Dark Side!
I’ll save you a seat in the Black Hole...
In the meantime, you can bask in the glory of how awful your guys made the Raiders look on opening night!
They need to trade Ryan ‘fumble fingers’ Mathews.
3 Red Zone turnovers vs the Falcons.
“Golden Tate didn’t catch the ball”
Actually he did. We can argue who touched the ball with both hands first, but Tate did legally “catch” the ball.
“and it wasn’t simultaneous”
Actually I would agree in that Tate made the “catch” first since both his feet were down prior to the defenders feet coming down. See the NFL statement on what constitutes a “catch”. Just because a defender has the ball in his hands does not make it a catch until both his feet are down. By the time the defenders feet had come down, Tate already had partial possession of the ball and both feet down and was trying to strip the ball totally away from the defender.
“He instead caught the player who actually caught the ball just a moment previous.”
Photos prove Tate’s left hand was inside the defenders hands. He did not simply grab the defender. And again, the defender can not legally “catch” the ball until both his feet come down. Every video show Tates hands on the(ball/defender/whatever you want to say) PRIOR to the defenders feet being on the ground.
“He likewise did not control the ball. ‘Control’ means what we both know it means.”
It doesn’t matter what we think it means. It only matters what the NFL says it means. Its their rules and definitions. By their rules, it was a touchdown. The play was reviewed-still a touchdown. Reviewed again by the NFL itself-still a touchdown and correct call on that aspect. (they blew the pass interference though)
“Jennings had possession with two hands and with its close to his body, Tate only had a hand on it and his other was on Jennings arm. So there was no “tie””
There is no requirement to have both hands holding the ball. There is a requirement, though, to have both feet on the ground BEFORE it is considered feet on the ground and partial possession of the ball
“What you failed to see was that Tate took the ball from Jennings after they were on the ground. The one ref was calling a INT/TB when the other bozo re came in from a few yards away to call it a TD.”
What happened after they hit the ground is a non issue. Once Tate’s feet came down it was a touchdown for the offense. If you watch the video, it was actually the defender who rolls back and forth to try and take the ball away from Tate after they hit the ground(resulting in the earlier pic on this post) but Tate-even with his one hand, was still able to control come out of the pile with it.
As for the refs, the “bozo” was in fact a few yards away and saw the entire play unobstructed. The ref that blew the call had to come from the other side of the field, had his view blocked by another defender. Watch the video linked previously. You can see him running allthe way from the other end of the endzone.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.