Ohio Senate Considers Limiting Smoking in Cars

WKRD ^ | 02/02/2012 | WKRD

[TSgt]

COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A bill in the Ohio Senate would ban smoking in cars if children under 6 are on board.

The measure's sponsor says the idea is to safeguard youngsters from secondhand smoke. Democratic Sen. Charleta Tavares of Columbus testified Wednesday at a hearing on her bill and said smoke inside cars is especially dangerous because the space makes the smoke much more concentrated.

Multiple news outlets report that Senate Highways and Transportation Committee Chairman Tom Patton questioned how law enforcers would be able to spot that a child is younger than 6, in order to enforce the law. Another Republican, Sen. Frank LaRose, warned that critics are likely to say the proposal infringes on personal freedom.

Tavares says several other states have similar car smoking bans.

[traditional1]

"Littering is littering, no matter how small, but I've never seen a Big Mac wrapper or coffee cup burn thousands of acres of land, destroying property and lives along the way."

Cigarettes are self-extinguishing now, if you're not aware, and the multi-thousand acre forest fires are usually from eco-nut backpackers and woodsy types who don't know how to handle a campfire. They walk away from a pile of hot coals, chewing their granola bars in the woods that are over-grown because of anti-logging environmental rules, and then set thousands of acres on fire. The other major cause of forest fires is lightning, once again burning out of control due to anti-logging/overgrown forests.

[AnglePark]

When I go to the range I police my brass. Why? Because it’s the rule of the range, and a courtesy to others. It’s not even the law — just the rule of the range, but I do it each and every time, no matter how many rounds I send down range. Doing the right thing — especially when it’s the law — shouldn’t be so damned difficult.

http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/03/massive-apartment-blaze-sparked-by-cigarette

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/12/23/despite-2008-law-fires-started-by-cigarettes-still-a-problem/

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xi73wo_a-cigarette-butt-caused-a-brush-fire-in-big-flats_news

http://www.mywesttexas.com/special_report/fire_breaches_city_limits/article_38f81346-867b-11e0-97ee-001cc4c03286.html

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-wildfire-that-burned-350-acres-started-with-cigarette/article/3544801

http://www.news-journal.com/news/cigarette-causes-acre-gregg-county-fire-officials-say/article_41720868-d1cd-11e0-943b-001cc4c03286.html

http://www.news-journalonline.com/news/local/east-volusia/2012/01/15/officials-discarded-cigarette-sparked-blaze-near-ormond.html

[chrisser]

I'd say I'm surprised by that statement -- especially from a FReeper -- but nothing surprises me any longer. Somehow, folks from all walks of life seem to find justification for unacceptable behavior.

I don't know how you got that from what I wrote. Options are options. Their "unacceptability" is dependent not on whether the option is feasible, but is rather a matter of law, regulation or custom and how the combinations of those add up in comparison to other options.

I sympathize with having to pick up butts. I have to do it too - I live on a corner in front of a stop light. I'd argue it's even worse for me, since every one I pick up makes me want to buy a pack of cigarettes and pick up the habit again.

But, just for a second, put yourself in the position of a smoker. You're addicted. Yes, you knew it would happen, but that doesn't change the fact that you are. You need a cigarette. Yes, you read that right, you need it. Just as surely as a heroin or crack addict needs it, except tobacco is still legal and still subsidized by your tax dollars.

You can't smoke indoors anywhere except maybe at home if you own the place and you're single. But for the vast majority of people, most of your waking hours are spent at work or driving to/from work. You can't smoke outside in most places. Those places you can smoke are generally on the sidewalk near some out-of-the-way doorway, or a loading dock. These days, you often have to walk down to the corner so you're no longer on company property or near a doorway due to legal restrictions. Or you can smoke in your car - of course not on company property or even in many public places.

Once you've finished your cigarette, what do you do with the butt? Firstly, you have to be exceptionally careful that you extinguish it unless there's a proper ash tray around (chances of which are between slim and none in 21st century America). You can't squeeze it between your fingers, or use your clothes. The only practical place is to drop it on the ground and crush it with your shoe. But that's only enough to put it out - that's not enough to make it safe to put near other flammable material.

So what do you do with it?

Well, you can't put it in your pocket. It will make your clothes smell even worse than they do when you smoke and it is certain that someone will complain. Plus if it isn't completely out you'll burn a hole in your pocket. You can't carry it anywhere indoors, and most places outdoors. Having the thing in your hand, lit or not, is enough for you to be violating smoking laws/rules/regulations or generate a complaint from someone. You can't throw it in a trash receptacle unless you are absolutely certain that it can't start a fire - and the only way to do that is to have a source of water present. The only place where there are trash receptacles and water present, generally speaking, is inside a building, but good luck putting a cigarette butt in the trash there - someone will complain about the smell even if you put the thing in a zip lock bag (I've tried it). And here's a fun fact, soaking a butt in water makes it stink about 10x worse than when it's dry.

Even if you buy a decent ash tray, you won't be able to keep it outside - it will either be stolen, or your employer will not allow it (I've had both happen). If you bring an ashtray out with you, you won't be able to bring it back inside (because of the smell - even if you wash it - I tried). Even if you could use an ashtray, you still have to empty it somewhere.

Very few businesses besides retail have trash receptacles outside anyway of any sort, even if you did bring a bottle of water to soak the butt when you're done.

Frankly, if you do anything responsible with that butt, somebody, somewhere will complain - and loudly. It's sad but true that doing the least responsible thing generates the least amount of pushback from the general public. I don't know why it is, but it is.

Let's put this in perspective. Cigarette butts are biodgradeable (although the filters do take awhile). They aren't radioactive waste, or plastic bags, or even the nuisance that fallen leaves can be. Smokers aren't mugging you or robbing a bank to feed their habit. They aren't pushing it on your children to make a profit to support their habit. For the most part they can't stop smoking and they don't want to bother non-smokers.

But in our zeal to stop smoking (a zeal that we have yet to find for illegal substances, BTW) we have so marginalized smokers that they are in a near-impossible position. No matter how a smoker tries to accomodate the ever-expanding list of restrictions on smoking, it seems that someone, somewhere is P.O.d about them, whether merited or not. Of course, that's the point isn't it? We don't have the courage to make tobacco illegal. Well, when we've gone and made every option unacceptable, it shouldn't surprise anyone that smokers chose the least unacceptable one that allows them to feed their habit - and the least unacceptable option for disposing of a cigarette butt is to toss it on the ground. Compared to dropping it in the trash where it could cause a fire, it's actually more reponsible, sadly, at least in those places where the climate or landscape doesn't favor brush or forest fires.

I guess there are three ways to stop the butt dropping. The easiest would be to lighten up on the regulations that prevent smokers and their employers/guests from making some small accomodation to smokers to allow them to act responsibly. Good luck with that.

The hardest would be to just make tobacco illegal. Good luck with that.

The most likely will be some sort of crackdown on cigarette butt littering. without providing any other viable options. Since I'm not a smoker anymore, I'll be watching that likely outcome with bemused interest, especially as the incidences of trash fires and car fires mysteriously increase.

Since you feel so strongly about cigarette butt disposal, what is your suggestion for disposing of them since everywhere inside is off limits and everywhere outside is either not available, dangerous, or prohibited?

BTW, putting them in the ashtray of the car only delays most of the same problems to another time or place. You still can't empty that ashtray just anywhere, and if it gets too full, you can start a fire in your car - for most people, their most valuable or second most valuable asset. In a crowded parking lot/garage, you can bet it wouldn't just be one car that burned either.

I'm in my mid 40s. When I started smoking in my 20s, I never tossed a butt on the ground. There was always an ashtray or receptacle available, or I could just bring the butt inside, run it under a faucet and toss it in the trash. I stopped smoking several years ago, but by then it was already a fools errand trying to comply with the ever changing group of restrictions, and by then, I was in the same position most smokers are today where you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[AnglePark]

I understand — I have a pesky eating habit, and I LOVE fish with garlic and onions — LOTS of ‘em, with stinky sauces and seasonings. And I usually wipe my hands on my pants.

Do you realize what cumin, curry, garlic, onions and fish do to a car, house or clothing? Or to me on a hot day when I sweat?! But I gotta eat, or I’ll actually DIE!

I don’t want to store the leftover food, stinky bags and wrappers in MY car — that’s disgusting, especially after it’s been there for a day or two. And can you imagine the field mice that will nest in my car after a while?! It’s a veritable buffet for them!

My coworkers don’t want to smell that stinky mess, so I can’t throw it in the trash at the office. It’s unbelievable what folks will complain about!

My wife can’t stand the smell either, so I can’t take the trash home. And if I do, the dog or cat may tip the can, and then it ends up all over my beautiful house. What a nasty mess! And, again, the mice and roaches... ugh! It’s a health hazard, for crying out loud!

My only option is to toss the garbage out the window...

[chrisser]

When your fish causes a fire, we can talk about equivalency.

[chrisser]

And by the way, when I say "complain" I'm not merely talking about voicing displeasure.

I'm also talking about calling the state hotline:



The reason there are no ashtrays are also due to state law:

http://www.elyriahealth.com/about/announcements.shtml

"On November 7, 2006 the voting public passed into law legislation which provides for smoke free workplaces and smoke free public places. This law went into effect on December 7, 2006.

These guidelines have been developed by the Ohio Department of Health to provide 3 simple steps to help you comply with the new law as required on December 7, 2006. These steps are:

1. Begin prohibiting smoking in any public place or place of employment as of December 7, 2006. This includes areas adjacent to means of egress and ingress to your facility.

2. Removing all ashtrays and other receptacles used for disposing of smoking materials from any area where smoking is prohibited by the statute.

3. Posting of conspicuous signage in every public place and place of employment where smoking is prohibited, including at each entrance. The statute requires these signs to say "No Smoking" or have the international symbol for "No Smoking" (consisting of a pictorial representation of a burning cigarette enclosed in a red circle with a red bar across it. These signs must be clearly legible and MUST include the toll free number for reporting violations"



So here in my state, you are prohibited from smoking at work, or anywhere near the doorways, and your employer is prohibited from providing any safe means of disposing of the butts to employees on their way back or visitors on their way in.

Likewise, a business like a bar, restaurant or retail establishment is prohibited from allowing smoking in their facility and is also prohibited from supplying responsible means for smoking customers to extinguish their cigarettes on the way into their facility.

You can imagine, in this kind of atmosphere with state-encouraged public snitching, that no business is going to let an employee or customer put a cigarette in their trash and certainly not empty an ashtray into their trash and risk a visit from the smoke Nazi's because some busybody got a whif of burnt tobacco leaf.

[AnglePark]

If YOUR car burns because you didn't extinguish YOUR cigarette, too bad. It's YOUR car, and YOUR responsibility.

If YOUR house burns because you didn't extinguish YOUR cigarette, too bad. It's YOUR house.

If those are the only places you can dispose of YOUR cigarette butts, that's too bad -- that's where they need to be disposed.

If you have to carry YOUR butt until you find a proper place to dispose of it, DO IT!

It's YOUR responsibility as a smoker, no matter how inconvenient it may be for you. I don't care if you have to chew and swallow the damned thing -- it's YOURS, and your responsibility alone to properly dispose of it.

Good grief -- personal responsibility no longer exists in this country.

[Ghengis]

Charleta B. Tavares (D-Columbus) is proud to join the Ohio Senate to represent Columbus and the 15th District. She is a committed public servant who served as a member of Columbus City Council from 1999 to 2010. Prior to joining Council, Tavares left a legacy for the citizens of Ohio during her 5 ½ year tenure in the Ohio General Assembly as the State Representative in the 22nd House District. Tavares was the first African-American female to serve in the state legislature from Franklin County and the first African-American woman ever to hold a leadership position in the Ohio General Assembly.
02.10.2011 Senator Tavares Presents Testimony for Bill That Provides Tax Credit to Employers Who Hire Ex-felons Columbus - State Senator Charleta B. Tavares presented sponsor testimony to the Senate Ways and Means and Economic Development Committee for Senate Bill 58

Reading Tavares' bio that you posted reminded me of John Corby on his WTVN afternoon radio show yesterday. He was commenting on this piece of legislation when he off-handedly called Tavares a retread. Corby and his sidekick, Joe Bradley, decided that for all of her positions and titles and her overall lack of accomplishment, Tavares' appropriate nickname would be "Retread."

I agree.

[chrisser]

Wow.

YOU can read, can't you? I DON'T SMOKE!

I have to ask, do you really think a house fire or a car fire has no consequences for anyone other than the owner?

YOU do know how insurance works, don't you?

YOU do park next to other cars, don't you?

YOU pay taxes for fire and police, don't you?

YOU or one of your loved ones lives or have lived in an apartment or a duplex or a house close enough to the neighbor that fire could easily spread?

Smokers used to exercise personal responsibility as a habit, until it was made illegal and impractical. The unintended consequence was you have to pick up little pieces of paper, but you'd prefer more loss of property and life to other innocent people as collateral damage, as long as a few smokers get taken out first.

Glad to see you're taking the moral high ground.

I guess it'd be crazy to suggest we let smokers have an occassional ash tray without triggering a lawsuit or citation, rather than encouraging them to accidentally burn down their property and that of others?

[StPaulRevert]

Those signs are everywhere in Ohio I’m in Perry County There was also talk of passing smoke free Apartment building laws in Ohio. Smoke free home laws with Children under a certain age. The ciggy nazi’s are bad here.

[eXe]

I feel the exact same way. Inside my car, my rules, dont like it? Tough. I’m not playing the game anymore. Go ahead, fine me for smoking in my car, hell put me in jail for using a legal substance.. go ahead.. because the media firestorm that would ensue would be like nothing they ever saw. I’m done playing these PC games because big brother does not like tobacco.

[AnglePark]

"YOU can read, can't you? I DON'T SMOKE!"

YOU and YOUR is used in the general sense, to describe smokers. It's like me saying, "If YOU use cocaine and kill YOURSELF, too bad -- it's YOUR life." Did I really have to explain that to you (the real "you" this time, not the smoker or cocaine user "you")?

The all-caps emphasis was added to -- hopefully -- get the point of personal responsiblity across, but apparently there's no hope for that. None. It's the law making people do it, not the people.

"The unintended consequence was you have to pick up little pieces of paper..."

There's nothing "unintended" about someone deciding to throw a cigarette butt from their car, especially when there's an ash tray in the car. Even if there wasn't an ash tray in the car, it's still up to you (i.e. the smoker) to dispose of it properly.

"Smokers used to exercise personal responsibility as a habit, until it was made illegal and impractical."

Is this anything like guns kill people, people don't kill people? Smokers have always thrown their butts to the ground. (Not YOU you, of course, I'm talking about smokers in general.)

"Glad to see you're taking the moral high ground."

Really, coming from someone who keeps hatching excuses for why folks decide to throw their trash to the ground? You have a right to smoke, but you (the smoker "you") infringes the rights of others -- with potentially hazardous results -- when you (again, the smoker "you") make the decision to throw a cigarette butt out. It really is that simple.

"I guess it'd be crazy to suggest we let smokers have an occassional ash tray without triggering a lawsuit or citation, rather than encouraging them to accidentally burn down their property and that of others?

You can't have an ash tray in your home, car, or on your property? And, are you saying I should have a legitimate concern over those "little pieces of paper" I have to pick up from "unintended consequences?"

If you don't like the laws, fight to have them changed. I don't like being required to have a permit to carry a concealed weapon, but it's the law -- and I obey it.

[chrisser]

Did you ever change the oil in your own car?

What did you do with the oil 30 40 or 50 years ago? The responsible thing back then was to have a 55 gallon or 33 gallon drum in your garage, and accumulate your used oil until you had enough that a commercial recycler would accept it. Obviously, there would be issues with having that amount of oil in a residence, but that was the responsible thing to do at the time.

Nobody did that of course. Used motor oil was poured down the drain, put in the trash, or just poured on the ground somewhere. That's what my grandparents generation did. That's what my father's generation did. Even I did it when I was a kid. Even after all that was obviously illegal (right around when I was a teen), it continued because there was no practical way for a consumer to dispose of small amounts of oil, and the responsible way to deal with it had it's own set of problems. When I learned what I was doing was polluting, I tried to find some place to take our old oil in vain. Unless we had a drum full of the stuff, nobody wanted to take it even if we paid them.

Now almost nobody improperly disposes of used motor oil. Why? Because just about every auto parts store, and most cities or counties will accept it from consumers in small quantities.

You could say the solution should have been to either stop changing your own oil, or be personally responsible for your old oil, just like you can say the solution is not to smoke or to be personally responsible for your butts.

The reality is, when you make "doing the right thing" easy, you get near 100% compliance. When you make it difficult to impossible, you get almost no compliance.

Pointing this out about motor oil disposal doesn't make me an advocate of polluting the environment. Pointing this out about cigarette butts doesn't make me a proponent of littering. Realizing that human nature is what it is, and that laws and policies should recognize this and work around it is a hallmark of conservatism. The founders didn't pretend we were all angels, they observed human nature and built the Consitution with human nature in mind, wisely realizing that if you either ignore or go against human nature, you are doomed to failure.

Why am I even bothering to have this discussion with you? Because some day, some statist city council person is going to approach you or someone like you and say something like "You know what AnglePark, you pick up a lot of cigarette butts. How about I create department of cigarette butt control, and hire two or three overpaid armed enforcement agents with lifetime pensions? Oh and we'll need a few supervisors paid even more. But you'll have less cigarette butts to pick up. After all, littering is illegal"

And then another level of permanent police state, permanent bureaucracy, and permanent loss of freedom will be layered on top of all the exisiting layers put there for similar reasons, and our taxes will all go up again, never to come down.

I'm hoping that you or someone else reading this will go to that council person and say something like "Shouldn't we eliminate the barriers to smokers responsibly disposing of their cigarette butts before we use the power of the state to fix a situation that didn't exist before - a situation another government agency created? And then, when we've made compliance easy, we can worry about those who won't comply"

Because as night follows day, if we suddenly made it illegal for parts stores to collect used motor oil from consumers, people would start pouring their oil into the environment again, legal or not, responsible or not. And the only thing another enforcement agency that goes against human nature is going to accomplish, is squandering more of our treasure and freedoms while the groundwater still gets polluted by used motor oil.

We have better than 100 years of experience dealing with smokers and accomodating them. Nobody had to force businesses to put ashtrays in, and nobody had to force smokers to use them. Tossing your butts used to make you a paria in the world of smokers. What changed? Government regulation.

7 years ago, we had a smoking room in our building. It had it's own self-contained filtration system and no one outside that room could tell people were smoking inside. Ashtrays were on the walls and everyone used them.

When it was nice weather, smokers went outside where there were ashtrays near the loading dock. Nobody, employee or visitor, tossed their butts on the ground - had they, they would have been ostracized. Now there are cigarette butts all over our parking lot from visitors coming in (I was the last staff person to smoke, and I quit over two years ago), realizing they can't legally walk near the facility )thanks to the signage) with their cigarette, and not having any means to dispose of their butts (thanks to the law). (And in case you haven't noticed, most cars these days don't even have the option of ashtrays if you wanted to special order them - you have to find some sort of half-arsed cupholder-based solution). Cigarette butts are everywhere despite smoking trending down.

Having seen the before and after, it's pretty easy to see the change wasn't caused by a sudden dearth of personal responsibility. People are the same as they've always been. What changed is the recent belief that we could regulate without consequence or consideration of reality.

[Tolerance Sucks Rocks]

Belated Nanny State PING!

[Madame Dufarge]

An excellent post, although appeals to reason never work with this type.

[going hot]

Sadly, the only option is to toss them on the ground.

Flick off the cherry, twist the end to be sure it is out, then place the butt in your pocket, or in the trash. Litter is litter.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Mears]

My live experience is that smokers are generally highly inconsiderate of others.

---

Wrong! SOME smokers are inconsiderate. Those are the ones you notice.

All the ones that dispose of cigarettes properly or smoke only where it is allowed aren’t even noticed.

[CSM]

I never used to litter and in fact loathe it. However, as I am walking to work I walk by the local HS and will throw my but on the ground there. I do it because it is government owned property and they have f’d with smokers enough that I am doing it out of spite. I will not discard any of my butts on anyone’s private property....

[CSM]

Yep, I’ll admit that I have changed from being very considerate to simply not giving a damn. Years of abuse by nosey ninnies will do that to a person.