Romney gave $4 Million donations to Mormon Church. Do Mormons help the poor with these donations?

January 24, 2012 | Ralph Mitchell

[Colofornian]

I can trust to the fact that all things redound to the will of God

Hey, both Tiller the late-term abortionist & the BTK serial killer were members of ELCA churches in Wichita.

Now if they both wind up in hell, I guess, yes, you can say that "all things redound to the (ultimate) will of God" but ya know, it sure would have been nice if Tiller & the BTK guy would have been actually saved in those ELCA churches they attended!

So why not the same with Lds...no urgency for them be saved?

[RinaseaofDs]

My method of witnessing and yours differ. Not everyone can be a ‘hand’. Some are feet, and some are noses.

I’m painfully aware of my responsibilities as a Christian, and I have seen as many disgusted by the spiritual 2 x 4 as have been saved by it.

I cannot and will not take any credit at all for those that have found Christ while I had a part to play in it. I’m just a tool.

I’m hip deep in Mormons through my business and through my heavy involvement with the Boy Scouts. My approach differs from yours. My approach isn’t something that’s mine in any case. I come to the situation confident the Holy Spirit is going to direct me to take whatever action is efficacious under the circumstances.

You are a person with an outlook of one who has escaped the flames and are completely grateful. You are even at times dismayed by the grace, that you were plucked (as it were) from that situation, and marvel at your ‘luck’.

I walk among people who attend weekly Church and are unconvinced of their salvation. They are ministered by those assuming everyone who walks through the door is actually in the palm of Christ.

When approached with the questions, I rely upon the consistency of Scripture and the simple logic and mercy of Christ’s salvation.

Fact is, there is precious little we understand about the conflict between God and Satan in the first place. I’m pretty clear on the notion that I don’t want to go to Hell, and as such work in that direction.

[RinaseaofDs]

“So why not the same with Lds...no urgency for them be saved?”

I wasn’t aware that we had any control over either the timetable or the outcome.

As to whether one is saved, we can only know by their actions, and even then, another human being looking on can’t know for sure.

The ELCA is a sect. It wasn’t when I joined it. It is now.

One must ultimately choose. I can’t make the choice for them, but I can live in a way that might put the inconsistencies in their lives in some relief. Many are blind and stay that way.

You speak of urgency as if this were a question of coverage - the more we proselytize, the more we convert. Even the Mormons will tell you the limitations of that approach.

Ever get a question about God from someone who is gay? I think the last thing they want to dwell on is that they are a living abomination before God. If they are asking the question, you can infer they already understand the inconsistencies in their lives, and are seeking a change.

Wanna hit’em with the 2x4? You can tell them their behavior is a choice, for example. I’ve seen enough homosexuals commit suicide before they were 20 to know that they don’t see it that way.

Salvation is a choice. It’s the first choice you make, and then you choose to change your life in other ways. Accepting Christ and making that changes enables so many other changes that would have been considered impossible.

Homosexuality is a sin. So is stealing gum. Let’s talk about Christ, Heaven, and Salvation. Homosexuals are some of the unhappiest people I know, and it ISN’T because we don’t accept them. It’s because they know they are fundamentally broken in ways more serious than the rest of us. It’s not something one has to dwell on.

Mormonism has its inconsistencies too. If they are asking the question, all we really need do is answer it?

Readiness to be saved is part of this that makes the ‘urgency’ thing seem so inappropriate. Seeds are planted, they are tended, and some grow, others whither.

Once you figure out you’re swimming with sharks, you then develop the urge to get out of the tank. Getting there in any one person is a team effort.

I hope you aren’t insinuating that had I acted sooner, perhaps the BTK killer or Tiller situations may have been different. That’s like saying ‘Had the owner of the Yankees just signed Fidel Castro, Cuba wouldn’t be in the situation its in.’

[Elsie]

Would you source your claims?

PR Department, Temple Square One, SLC, UT

[Elsie]

So, now that we’ve established that the problem is that we don’t like Mormonism, the question is what to do about Mormonism, evidently.

The answer has already been given:

reply #210

[Elsie]

I can’t figure it out myself, but outside of FR, I don’t think much about it.

Pay attention to what gets posted. You'll learn.

[Elsie]

Mormons don’t believe salvation comes through Christ but through Joseph Smith.

Elsie has quotes from their own writings that prove that.

Indeed I do!!!

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"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."

 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321

 

 

"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."

- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88

 

 

"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"

- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)

 

 

There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"

- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190

 

 

"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."

 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155

 

 

 

"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"

 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670

 

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They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.

He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.

He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.

As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.

Who has made this so?

Have I?

Have this people?

Have the world?

No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.

If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.

If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.

Can you pass without his inspection?

No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.

In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.

They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?

They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?

 Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

[Elsie]

Some are feet, and some are noses.

While others are as... uh; rectal orfices.

At least that's what I've been told...

[Elsie]

I’m pretty clear on the notion that I don’t want to go to Hell, and as such work in that direction.

What?

You're answering things beyond reply #306: go back and READ it!

[svcw]

I’m pretty clear on the notion that I don’t want to go to Hell, and as such work in that direction.

Wait a minute, you said you were secure in your Salvation, how is that possible if you are working for it?

Salvation is Grace, Salvation IS NOT works.

[reaganaut]

The 2x4 method doesn’t work for every type of non believer. However, it IS the ONLY type that works with Mormons. You have to get them mad enough to prove you wrong in order to get them to think for themselves.

[Colofornian]

I wasn’t aware that we had any control over either the timetable or the outcome.

Well, God is indeed sovereign. And the Holy Spirit retains that sovereignty for leading when people confess Christ as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3). But that doesn't mean God's sovereignty won't extend toward us == utilizing us to be either part that urgent effort to reach lost souls or at least make a difference in others' lives.

May I encourage you to take the apostle Paul & His urgency and apply it to your life?

1 I speak the truth in Christ—I am not lying, my conscience confirms it through the Holy Spirit— 2 I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. (Romans 9:1-4)

And, the season ("timetable") is always ripe to proclaim the Good News:

Preach the word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. (2 Tim. 4:2)

Paul there talked about being "prepared"...he also told the Ephesians, ..."with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace." (Eph. 6:15)

Our feet has to go beyond normal pathways. You do have control over your own feet, don't you?

And Paul told the Romans--after that chapter 9 quote above:

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” (Rom. 10:14-15)

[Colofornian]

I hope you aren’t insinuating that had I acted sooner, perhaps the BTK killer or Tiller situations may have been different.

Well, we can't make all-knowing "you" assessments from the standpoint of individual "yous"...but each "sect" is a "corporate you." (At least, take it as a "corporate you.")

Ever get a question about God from someone who is gay? I think the last thing they want to dwell on is that they are a living abomination before God.

Yes. More than once. Ever get questions from ex-gays as to why Christians are not witnessing more to homosexuals? (For me...again, yes. More than once)

If they are asking the question, you can infer they already understand the inconsistencies in their lives, and are seeking a change.

Exactly. Therefore, if they are interested in such a change, we don't need to rush to Old Testament verses about "abominations" -- do we?

We don't have to sidestep those verses; but we don't need to begin there. I prefer, for example, 1 Cor. 6:11...albeit...we need to also give the context of vv. 9-10:

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you WERE. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

"That is what some of you WERE." No, homosexuality is a lifetime given. Even if some were "born" that way (of which the evidence is ever so slight), it'd be no different than saying, "Well, because I was born a sinner I'll stay that way."

There is hope in this passage -- even in the midst of the context of being excluded from God's kingdom.

[Elsie]

No, homosexuality is a lifetime given.

                    ^

                   NOT

 

 

 

probably should go it here...

[Elsie]

Genesis 13:13

Now the men of Sodom were wicked and were sinning greatly against the LORD.

Genesis 18:20-21
20. Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
21. that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."

Genesis 19:4-7
4. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom--both young and old--surrounded the house.
5. They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
6. Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him
7. and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing.

 

Psalms 12:8      The wicked freely strut about when what is vile is honored among men.

      More?

Isaiah 3:9   The look on their faces testifies against them; they parade their sin like Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to them! They have brought disaster upon themselves.

2 Peter 2:13b  Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

 

 

Ezekiel 16:49-50
49. "`Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
50. They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

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2 Peter 2

 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
 4.  For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,  putting them into gloomy dungeons  to be held for judgment;
 5.  if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
 6.  if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
 7.  and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men
 8.  (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)--
 9.  if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.
 10.  This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature  and despise authority.   Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings;
 11.  yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord.
 12.  But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.
 13.  They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.

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But there IS hope!!!

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

 9. Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:
     Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
10. nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

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If you could NOT change, you would be in most pitiful shape...

[Colofornian]

Indeed. (Wanna sign up as my editor?).

[Sea Parrot]

Really, so by your mores, I don’t believe what you say you have seen.

If alive today, Dennis would be about 76, but would still be most interesting for you to look him in the eye and call him a liar.

[Sea Parrot]

No, I did not, for I never asked and he never said. But I did see him wipe the floor with two loud mouth guys during lunch break that day.

[RinaseaofDs]

Arrogant.

It’s what people cannot stand about Christians. God uses His entire creation to His purposes, yet you and a few others sit there and think you have the single answer to how to bring people to Christ.

Salvation is just a beginning. Understanding God’s creation? Why there is a conflict between God and Satan? I confess to not understanding it. My salvation is absolute. It’s the only thing I’m sure of.

As for blaming me for the BTK killer because my approach is different than yours - that’s something you’re going to have to deal with I guess. It’s a sick accusation.

Can we blame guys like you for all the people who stay away from Church for the fear of being ‘judged’ as soon as they walk through the door?

Can’t tell you how many cub scouts I ended up taking to their first service every February because while they wouldn’t ever again set foot in a church, they don’t want to get in the way of their child knowing about God.

I’m convinced God uses you all when the situation is appropriate.

[Sea Parrot]

You did note I said Dennis repaid them for their expenditures.

Oh, well, believe what you will. All I know is what he said and saw, the day he kicked the Hades out of two religious bigots.