His home E-cat is cheaper then the pellet stove we're looking atIf you're going to get an E-Cat to heat your house, make sure to pick up the matching winter coats, just like Rossi wears when running his E-Cats in a small room!
Posted on 01/09/2012 8:37:40 PM PST by Kevmo
Celani, Piantelli Geneva LENR Presentations
January 9, 2012
Francesco Celani is a colourful and respected character in the evolving LENR scene. An experienced nuclear physicist, it was he who tried to sneek a peek at the radiation spectra during the January 2011 eCat demo before Rossi stopped him. An offer to test the eCat in order to settle the mud surrounding it was refused by the inventor who pointed out that such a move would only benefit competitors .
Celani has not been idle and recently reported success working with Ni H reactions. It appears that his efforts do not lie on a single line as he explores the field in different directions. According to reports on 22passi, he will present an interesting result during the UN WSEC sustainable energy conference in Geneva (10-12 Jan). From 22passi and translated by Google:
In these weeks our group, working with long and thin wires having the surface coated with micro-nano-particles, get re-confirmation of a phenomenon, by us, seldom observed in some previous experiments: the specific alloy used (Cu-Ni), that usually has Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) of the resistance, if absorbs large amount of Hydrogen, changes to Negative TC. Such phenomenon is correlated to anomalous heat production and increases as the anomalous heat increases. If such key phenomenon will be kept under full control, because its behaviour can be observed with simple instrumentation, it can be open the door to systematic work, worldwide, to find the “optimal” material and operating point .
If this result is verified, it could prove a powerful analytical tool when trying to discover the process underlying LENR. If the effect ranges over a number of materials and dopant strengths, a researcher may be able to use the switch in resistance as a marker to electronically signal when excess heat is optimal and with what mix of materials .
Compare the situation with that in 1989. Thousands of scientists around the world groped blindly for an effect as elusive as the Yeti. Now researchers understand (to an extent) why the reaction was so elusive and are able to create it at will. This is just the start. If Celani’s result holds, it could form part of a growing arsenal that will be brought to bear on the problem. With luck, we are seeing early signs of what’s to come .
Many people are angry at scientists, forgetting that it is they who will eventually take the ragged toddler that is LENR and push him to maturity .
Roy Virgilio also reports that Piantelli, the scientist many think is hot on the heels of Rossi, will also present something new and worthy .
The following tease was also posted by Roy (he has been reliable in the past). Translated by Google:
WSEC 2012, cold fusion becomes mainstream science! And ‘with great pleasure that we point out an extremely important international event to be held at the UN in Geneva 10 to 12 January 2012 and promises to change that finally and definitively the future of so-called “Cold Fusion”. ‘s “International Sustainable Energy Organisation” (ISEO) UN organization, is preparing an international conference on sustainable energy that will be also emphasized on LENR studies and the results achieved in recent years. In fact it is un’ufficializzazione of this technology in front of politicians, organizations and companies around the world. Fortunately for us, and in recognition of the tremendous work carried out in recent years in our country, indeed the forefront of this sector, our speaker will be done by Francesco Celani INFN Frascati. I am attaching the final abstract of the speech Celan (which will have a plenary session of about 15 minutes worldwide and two hours in workgroups of scientists) and the agenda of the day (Celani and LERNA be found in Group III). Good read …. and that is the right time that the subject of cold fusion and funded as it should be reassessed to arrive in our homes as soon as possible. The world could change for the better. Roy
Exciting times .
[With thanks to Ivan Mohorovicic]
This comment is pure bullshit, and you know it. I know of NOBODY on any of these threads who has said they were "absolutely positive that Rossi and Defkalion are legitimate".
"Celani's recent comments seem to be hedging on Rossi and Defkalion. Maybe Celani knows something we don't?
To quote Reagan...."there you go again".....interpreting a set of facts solely from the "it's a scam" perspective.
This is so badly mangled with regards to accuracy that I barely know where to start. Aussie-guy has bought two small electrolysis CF experimental cells. His total budget for investment into CF is $100,000, not what he paid for the cells. He didn't have enough to buy a 1MW system, and Rossi is not currently willing to sell him a smaller unit.
Why not just ask HIM.....you can simply post to the vortex-l mailing list.
Well, they certainly won't get the "full story" by reading your stuffThat's OK, since fanboys like you and Kevmo are working hard at spreading Rossi's version.
A good example: You spent most of last year saying that Rossi couldn't be a con man, because a con man would not let his gadget be independently tested by a University.
Of course, it turns out that Rossi will not let his gadget be independently tested by a University, so by your own logic, Rossi appears to be a fraud.
This is so badly mangled with regards to accuracy that I barely know where to start. Aussie-guy has bought two small electrolysis CF experimental cells. His total budget for investment into CF is $100,000, not what he paid for the cells.Again, why would he be spending $100,000 for basic CF research when Rossi is supposedly selling Megawatt plants today. That would be like me doing basic research on how airplanes work, while watching jetliners fly overhead.
He didn't have enough to buy a 1MW system, and Rossi is not currently willing to sell him a smaller unit.There's no sign that Rossi is willing to sell anyone an actual working E-Cat, in spite of his unsubstantiated claims to the contrary.
Correct. Bockris did precisely what you suggested, he called Fleischmann and pumped him for the minute details, and then built his own cell.....which worked.
"What does D2 loading do? D2 is the deuterium that the palladium electrode sit in if I recall correctly?
"D2 loading" is forcing the maximum amount of deuterium into the palladium electrode lattice (and thus into the closest possible deuterium atom-to-deuterium atom spacing). It turns out that for the reaction to "kick off" that the loading has to be (as I recall) greater than a loading factor of 0.75 (and at this point I don't recall exactly how loading factor is defined...but it is an agreed upon parameter of such systems).
"Once the reaction starts, how long does it run for, what is the limiting reagent or (reactant) in this case (reactant stolen from Wiki)? Since D2 is a gas, is it dissolved in water or another solvent and it's not 'heavy water' is it?
"Reactant" is correct. In the case of a P&F cell, you pass a DC current through a solution of D2O (heavy water) containing a high level of some ionic species (for P&F cells, this is lithium deuteroxide (LiOD)). D2 gas is produced at one electrode, and O2 gas at the other. You set up the polarity of the current such that the D2 gas is being evolved at the palladium electrode, and O2 gas at the "counter electrode" (usually platinum). As the electrolysis continues, D2 molecules are driven into the palladium electrode substrate, where they lose their electrons to the palladium lattice and become "naked" D+ atoms. Such systems also incorporate what is called a "recombiner" (which is basically a platinum catalyst) mounted in the headspace of the reactor to "recombine" any D2 that is NOT forced into the palladium with the O2 that is coming from the counter-electrode (assuming the cell is "closed", i.e. hermetically sealed). In an "open" cell, you just keep adding D2O (but that makes the accounting more difficult).
So, basically, you are making D2 of from heavy water. Of course, there are a lot of complicating factors (as McKubre details). These are NOT simple systems, and they take real expertise to set up and run correctly. And there are a huge number of variations that can be done. NOT easy to "get exactly right".
AFAIK, once started, the cells run until they are shut down, or you stop adding D2O in the case of "open" cells".
"If the cell has to run a long time before they see the effect, have they counted the energy used to prepare the cell before it starts running and is it over unity when it's all taken into account?"
Yes. Although the psycho-skeptics constantly claim that they have somehow "made an accounting error" and not correctly accounted for it.
"Thanks for the time I know you're swamped. I'm too beat to read more on the LENR-CANR site but that will probably have to wait until the weekend assuming of course that I don't end up sleeping or working through it.
I'm an early riser, so I can typically take more time in the AM. Things are SLOWLY winding down a bit at work (all the end-of-the-year stuff has gone and all that remains is the "regular stuff" that didn't get done while the rush was on). I "think" I perceive some light at the end of the tunnel with no other signs of an onrushing train, so I am cautiously optimistic that I just "might" be getting caught up.
The promising aspect is independent verification that SOMETHING is happening in Ni-H reactions.
This is so badly mangled with regards to accuracy that I barely know where to start.As usual, you're wrong. Aussie Guy was ready to buy a 1-MW unit (so he apparently had the money), but Rossi stalled him indefinitely. LINKHe didn't have enough to buy a 1MW system, and Rossi is not currently willing to sell him a smaller unit.
Of course, Rossi has an excuse for why he won't actually sell an E-Cat, but the real reason is that for someone running an investment scam, actually signing a sales contract with someone would be a disaster. A customer has expectations for specific performance (a device, delivered on a date certain, performing as described in the sales contract).
An investor, on the other hand, has no expectation of specific results. That's the kind of person Rossi wants to deal with: people who will give him money without any guarantee that he will actually produce anything of value.
Regarding the P&F cells, is their only energy output in the form of heat or can it also be used to make O2 and D2 gas at the same time? I know you said it creates those gases from electrolysis and the cell is engineered to recombine D2 with O2 at the counter electrode but is that another benefit of the P&F cells, cheap (or cheaper) creation of O2 and D2?
I'm an early riser, so I can typically take more time in the AM. Things are SLOWLY winding down a bit at work (all the end-of-the-year stuff has gone and all that remains is the "regular stuff" that didn't get done while the rush was on). I "think" I perceive some light at the end of the tunnel with no other signs of an onrushing train, so I am cautiously optimistic that I just "might" be getting caught up.
All the engineering types I know are early risers and so am I. I prefer to come in early to make sure everything works and to have an hour or two of uninterrupted work. The downside is when someone schedules a meeting at 6:00pm because they come in late and no matter how many times I decline, the same people do the same thing arghh...
With P&F cells, the electroysis current is typically the only energy input. Any heat that appears is either I^2R (cell resistances), chemical heat from the "recombiner", or "anomalous heat", hopefully from CF. I think the electrolysis approach is going to turn out to be a scientific curiosity in the long run. Pons and Fleischmann used electrolysis because they were both electrochemists (if all you have is a hammer.....), and there was "some" historical evidence of "anomalous heat" in some earlier work in such cells using D2O.
"All the engineering types I know are early risers and so am I. I prefer to come in early to make sure everything works and to have an hour or two of uninterrupted work. The downside is when someone schedules a meeting at 6:00pm because they come in late and no matter how many times I decline, the same people do the same thing arghh.."
LOL....once again we are more alike than different. I got "corrupted" in college. One of the student jobs I had was working in one of the school cafeterias. You had to BE THERE for the breakfast shift around 3:30AM. I discovered that there was all this "undisturbed time" available that could be put to productive use, and have kept those kinds of hours ever since. But...as you said....those late-night meetings can be "de-motivating".
And once again you prove that you can't read plain English.
"We were ready to do a deal for the 1 MW thermal plant but Rossi suggested we wait as he is not ready to sell us a high temp thermal oil 1 MW E-Cat plant".
Note the section in bold. Rossi's 1MW current product is not designed for high temperatures. The high temperature version is an experimental product. As I recall the overall discission, Aussie-guy then wanted to get a small unit (low temp. thermal only) to "play around with", and Rossi wasn't willing to sell a "special order" device. Which is perfectly understandable. Most companies HATE "specials".
"Of course, Rossi has an excuse for why he won't actually sell an E-Cat, but the real reason is that for someone running an investment scam, actually signing a sales contract with someone would be a disaster. A customer has expectations for specific performance (a device, delivered on a date certain, performing as described in the sales contract). An investor, on the other hand, has no expectation of specific results. That's the kind of person Rossi wants to deal with: people who will give him money without any guarantee that he will actually produce anything of value.
Blah, blah, blah. Same old unfounded speculations you always indulge in. PUT A CORK IN IT!!
I also saw a great quote from Bockris:
Many years ago, John Bockris said "Negative results can be obtained without skill and experience."
I wonder if other scientists even caught on to his cynical sarcasm. It's like the old question, what do you call someone who finished last in medical school? Doctor.
Someone had to be last.
I thought I was smarmy but Putterman, just damn...
I hope this is a simple question to answer. It seems the P&F cells work from the lightest part of the periodic table and Rossi's device (and other researchers) work on the middle part of the table starting with Nickel and ending up with copper.
In your opinion, which option makes more sense in that we'll end up with something we can use?
The only problem with coming in early is if someone else (pure management types) start doing it, they cut into my most productive time, especially when they consider meetings to be productive.
Harness the power of wasted meetings and we would be energy independent.
We were ready to do a deal for the 1 MW thermal plant but Rossi suggested we wait as he is not ready to sell us a high temp thermal oil 1 MW E-Cat plant".
Did he say that he is working on a thermal oil plant or plans to?
Let's assume it works, depending on the oil, just to pick something, Olive oil has a boiling point of 300oC. I'm not saying he's using olive oil (although it would be funny to speculate on the benefits of extra virgin VS virgin) but, Krivit complains that Rossi kept driving down the efficiencies of the E-cat to 6X unity. Someone mentioned that although the device will work at higher efficiencies (and higher temperatures, they appear linked), it is unstable running there. I wonder if the oil makes a difference and since he could run the oil thats boiling point is 3x the temperature of boiling water, run it through a heat exchanger and use that steam to drive a turbine.
Would the E-cat be stable there (higher efficiencies and temperatures) using oil over water?
Dang it all, it is frustrating to just wait; I wonder how Krivit feels. Does he still have access to Rossi or was Rossi throwing him in with the snakes comment cutting him off?
His home E-cat is cheaper then the pellet stove we're looking at and you still have to pay to install it (it's not rocket science to install but if I make a mistake and burn the house down, what is my recourse?) You also have to buy the pellets once a week or so depending on the grueling California weather and I still have to have a regular water heater.
There's a lot of people waiting for a sign. Does he have an E-cat set up so if it's successful we get white smoke like the Pope?
His home E-cat is cheaper then the pellet stove we're looking atIf you're going to get an E-Cat to heat your house, make sure to pick up the matching winter coats, just like Rossi wears when running his E-Cats in a small room!
"We were ready to do a deal for the 1 MW thermal plant but Rossi suggested we wait as he is not ready to sell us a high temp thermal oil 1 MW E-Cat plant".Yup, that's Rossi's current excuse as to why he won't actually sell and eager customer one of his gadgets.
After a while, he'll come up with another excuse, and then another, month after month, year after year, until all but the most foolish of his fanboys realize that he's a fraud.
Like the fools who believed Rossi when he promised that he would allow Universities to perform independent testing of his gadget.
That's an awful quick development cycle for something people have been working on since 1989.
That's an awful quick development cycle for something people have been working on since 1989.Well... I was pointing out the absurdity of Rossi having to wear a heavy winter coat in a small room with a running E-Cat. If you look at the photos from the "Megawatt" test, they were all wearing winter coats there as well, even though a genuine Megawatt (or half-Megawatt as they were claiming) device would be putting out so much heat that the place should have been a sauna. It's interesting that no one at the big dog & pony show mentioned noticing any heat coming from the shipping container or heat exchanger.
But, you're right that Rossi's claims are so far out of scale to anything real that it ought to be setting off alarms in the minds of anyone following this story.
Rossi is also claiming that he can "transmute" the Nickel he's claiming to use as "fuel" for his E-Cat to have different isotope ratios than found in nature, and he's claiming to be able to do it for pennies per gram in his kitchen. This is a process that, by any known method, takes massive infrastructure; massive enough to strain the resources of smaller nations. (This is what Iran and North Korea have been doing in their efforts to build nuclear bombs).
If Rossi really has a new, almost free method of converting elements to specific isotope ratios, that would be worth far more than a fancy tea kettle. And yet, neither Rossi nor his fans seem to care about what would be as big a breakthrough (if not bigger) than a practical cold fusion device.
Sorry. Probably one of the hardest questions there is.
"It seems the P&F cells work from the lightest part of the periodic table and Rossi's device (and other researchers) work on the middle part of the table starting with Nickel and ending up with copper. In your opinion, which option makes more sense in that we'll end up with something we can use?"
In the final analysis, it will depend on availability of materials (and thus economics). In the case of P&F, the materials (Pd and D2) are of "relative" scarcity and thus more expensive. Nickel and H2 are much more abundant, and thus cheaper.
But in most of the LANR business, we are at the same stage as "look, I can make this mixture of hydrocarbons and air explode if I shoot an electric spark into it". If Rossi (or Piantelli, or Ahern, or any of several others) get a reliably working system up an going, we will STILL be at the "pre-Model-T" stage. Once people really get to work exploring the possibilities (alloys, various composites), who knows what other materials will work.
I have long wondered about titanium. It has many of the same properties of absorbing large quantities of hydrogen into its metal matrix as do palladium and nickel, and since it is even further down the periodic chart than either, "should" be even cheaper. It's harder to work (machining-wise).
Yes.
"Let's assume it works, depending on the oil, just to pick something, Olive oil has a boiling point of 300oC. I'm not saying he's using olive oil (although it would be funny to speculate on the benefits of extra virgin VS virgin) but, Krivit complains that Rossi kept driving down the efficiencies of the E-cat to 6X unity. Someone mentioned that although the device will work at higher efficiencies (and higher temperatures, they appear linked), it is unstable running there. I wonder if the oil makes a difference and since he could run the oil thats boiling point is 3x the temperature of boiling water, run it through a heat exchanger and use that steam to drive a turbine.
I think the reason Rossi kept "reducing the efficiency" was because he didn't actually know how to design a really efficient heat-removal means from the "core", and also didn't have a good automatic control system. He was getting stability by trading off additional electric heating power with his existing (poor) capability to cool the core (and hence having it go into "thermal runaway" conditions). It is very simple to get an off-the-shelf temperature controller, so he could easily control the current to his auxiliary heater, and thus get "some" level of control, but not good.
The "fat E-cat" had a completely different internal heat exchange, and was more stable (and thus finally yielded the ability to "self-sustain", at least for a while).
"Would the E-cat be stable there (higher efficiencies and temperatures) using oil over water?
I think if the heat-exchange and control system are well-engineered, that the E-Cat will be stable pretty much wherever you set it, as long as that doesn't cause the nickel substrate to "change state" (i.e. melt or deform) and lose its ability to promote whatever reaction is happening.
"Dang it all, it is frustrating to just wait; I wonder how Krivit feels. Does he still have access to Rossi or was Rossi throwing him in with the snakes comment cutting him off?"
Indeed it is frustrating, but it's all we can do. IMO, Rossi has pretty much blown off ALL journalists other than a very limited subset of people he has known and trusted for a long time (and hence so much information flowing through "22passi" and Danielle Passerini).
Yeah, if he sells systems, "it's a scam". If he doesn't sell systems, "it's a scam". Same old blah, blah, blah from you as always.
They give new meaning to the term cold fusion.
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