Posted on 12/07/2011 7:00:50 AM PST by SeekAndFind
It's one thing to claim that nameless, faceless government bureaucrats are overpaid. It's quite another to argue, as Jason Richwine of the Heritage Foundation and I recently have, that public school teachers are overpaid by more than 50 percent. This is real money, costing state and local governments over $100 billion annually. Our study generated significant, sometimes hysterical, pushback. But our conclusions still stand, and deliver important lessons regarding education financing and reform.
The claim that teachers are underpaid rests on a single isolated fact: that on average, public school teachers receive salaries about 19 percent less than private sector workers with bachelor's or master's degrees. But it's really not that simple. Here are eight reasons why.
1. All bachelor's degrees aren't the same. No one's surprised when a physics or finance major earns more than the person who studied medieval poetry, even if both graduate from the same college. Likewise, Education is widely held to be a less rigorous course of study, attracting below-average students but awarding the highest average GPAs of any college major. Easy grading both discourages hard work and makes it tough for schools to separate the good prospective teachers from the not-so-good ones. Prospective teachers enter college with SAT scores around the 40th percentile - meaning that about 60 percent of test-takers received higher scores - so it shouldn't be surprising if teachers' salaries after graduation salaries are around the 40th percentile as well.
2. That master's degree may not be worth much either. Many teachers have master's degrees but, as the Center for Educator Compensation Reform summarized the research, "The preponderance of evidence suggests that teachers who have completed graduate degrees are not significantly more effective at increasing student learning than those with no more than a bachelor's degree."
(Excerpt) Read more at realclearmarkets.com ...
Average salary in Boston: $80,000.
See my post on teachers being fired. I searched on: Teachers Fired Because ... came up with interesting reasons.
Problem is there is no comparison in the public sector where you can compare teachers salary with another position in industry. Teachers work doesn’t end with the school day. I’ve helped my friends in the evening going over the tests, homework kids turned in. They have spent several hours before class and after class. Again, they get a fixed salary and it’s up to them how they want to receive it; either in 12 month segments or 10 month segments. They do not get paid a years salary for just ten months work.
For a teacher, you have reading comprehension issues and are very touchy about criticisms that aren’t leveled at you - but your touchiness is instructive.
I am not talking about switching careers - I am talking about the many many folks I know who would teach part time to share what they have learned in the real world with kids in the classroom. Many would do it for free.
The “degree” is still a requirement that would hold out a lot of qualified folks. Why should a successful entrepreneur of some 25 years need a damned economics degree to be allowed to teach? Why should a man or woman whose run dozens or hundreds or thousand of employees have to take a damned “classroom management class” BS? What is the “specialization” general skills test?
You prove my point. I hope you don’t coach debate.
All well & good. It’s just not going to score any points when arguing with teachers.
I have no doubt that your teacher friends are outstanding examples of the teacher profession. But are they representative of the teacher population? If they were the kind of teachers that didn't really give a damn, and were just counting the days before retirement, would you have them as friends?
The point I'm making is that a person's circle of friends are people who generally are compatible with that person's personality and viewpoints. We tend to have as friends people who are in many ways like us.
Bingo! That is precisely the bias encountered when I suggested “Troops to Teachers” as a source for my replacement. The administration was worried that the candidates would “lack empathy” with the students.
Bingo! That is precisely the bias encountered when I suggested “Troops to Teachers” as a source for my replacement. The administration was worried that the candidates would “lack empathy” with the students.
BTTT
As far as I know most of the teachers in their school district work the same. Lots of prep work and evening work. True, there probably are those who are just counting days to retirement. Not all teachers are dedicated.
I do have a degree, but I also know that neither Steve Jobs nor Rush Limbaugh nor Bill Gates ARE QUALIFIED TO TEACH A CLASS OF MIDDLE SCHOOLERS UNDER YOUR STUPID SYSTEM.
so yes, maybe you ARE stupid.
Your answers indicate that you are simply an apologist for the status quo and the “teaching profession.”
It also indicates that you put too much value on “a degree” in spite of a mountain of evidence that there has never been such a disparity between the cost / value of “a degree.”
You are part of the problem. I home schooled my kids. I am part of the solution.
Those tools are the districts own rules and regulations, get their Personnel Commission Rules and Regulations, get their Board Policies and the Union Contracts for both Classified and Certificated Personnel and read them, every word, every page, every article. Yes; I have read Classified and Teachers contracts for at least 4 different school districts and they are all basically the same, the wording may be slightly different but the intent seems to remain the same.
Your concept of tenure probably comes more from the university system than from the K-12 public school system; in most states K-12 teachers don’t have what you are calling tenure, they have something that is called a Reasonable Assurance of Contract Renewal at the end of each school year, this can be broken if the responsible administrator is willing to do their homework. As to having the necessary educational background to deal with the State Ed. Code; I have read the California State Ed. Code from cover to cover, and believe me if any state has a more complicated one written by more lawyers and over educated idiots I pity that state.
Any competent, reasonably educated person can read these documents, understand and apply them with only occasional help from the districts lawyer and every district retains a legal counselor. As to the problems concerning students, teachers and parents. I had to deal with them every single day; maintenance is more than re-wiring or re-plumbing a room. We had to deal with all State Ed. Code, Title 24 Rules and Regulations, Title 8 Health and Safety, State Handicapped and Architectural Barrier requirements, every thing from the correct amount of square footage per student per room to the correct cubic feet per minute of air exchange per person per room. I have had to argue with parents, teachers and my own administrators about what was required for students of various different placements, from severely handicapped to general ed. and ultimately beat them over their heads with their own state rules and regulations. I have been deposed and testified in court more times than I can even remember; against bad contractors, teachers and administrators, when they are wrong they are wrong and I won’t be intimidated. Most of the bad players in any school district have forgotten why they are there; to provide the tools necessary to present every student with an opportunity to learn. A parent who doesn’t care defeats the system, an administrator who is more concerned with a cushy hi-tech office defeats the system and a teacher who is just putting in time to retirement is a waste of space.
Yes, a good part of the problem is the way teachers and educational administrators are trained, a bigger part of the problem is the way they are selected and promoted. They are their own little world, and unfortunately have convinced the rest of the world that only they are competent to organize and rule their world.
Any reasonably good administrator can deal successfully with a union. Rule #1 Don’t violate the contract. Rule #2 Enforce it word for word in the contract, including the sections on disciplinary actions. Rule #3 When renegotiating, take a tough but reasonable line and read every word of every proposal. Rule #4 No soft or ambiguous language; every word of every sentence of every article must be clearly stated and not subject to every bodies interpretation of what the intent was. May means I can do it if I feel like it, shall means I don’t have a choice in the matter. Budgets are just a matter of history and costs. It doesn’t matter whether it’s 11 dollars or a 111 million dollars. You have historical costs, current costs and future anticipated cost increases. In any school district the costs are material and personnel payroll and benefits. The material costs can reasonably estimated by past, present and future requirements; every thing from fuel to wire to books to lunches. That’s why we do demographic projections, and the smart ones also pay attention to the commodities market and world demand. I saved my district about 2 million dollars on copper about 6 or 7 years ago by paying attention to the Chinese and world demand, buy the wire cheap and stockpile it for the projects we were planning.
Labor costs are determined by market demand and being sharp at the bargaining table. One last thing always set aside a certain percentage for unanticipated expenses. That percentage can also be based on past and current performance.
School districts don’t get to make a profit, their dollars come from the state so you always have a solid number to start from; unless you are in California, then you always low ball your initial numbers like I had to.
Every problem you brought up can be taken care of by a competent, dedicated employee who is reasonably well educated. They don’t have to have degree in education; if they do good, but they still need real world experience outside the protected cloister of education only. They need to know how to hire, how to evaluate, how to fire, how to budget, and how to deal with people from all walks of life. 90% of it is just common sense.
I don’t know where this “Lawrence” is
I remember the anti-jewish case. Wasn’t she a non-tenured substitute teacher?
I remember the blog situation. Certainly bad judgement on her part, although I have seen much worse with people who kept their jobs.
The other teachers...were they tenured?
You are aware of situations where it costs the district less money to pay teacher NOT to teach rather than tackle the endless and expensive process of taking them through hearings?
I don’t know where this “Lawrence” is
I remember the anti-jewish case. Wasn’t she a non-tenured substitute teacher?
I remember the blog situation. Certainly bad judgement on her part, although I have seen much worse with people who kept their jobs.
The other teachers...were they tenured?
You are aware of situations where it costs the district less money to pay teacher NOT to teach rather than tackle the endless and expensive process of taking them through hearings?
“Your concept of tenure probably comes more from the university system than from the K-12 public school system; in most states K-12 teachers don’t have what you are calling tenure,”
No I’m not. Your post certainly is alot to digest, which I’ll go back to later.
Yes - there are contracts between the union and local board, but I’m referring specifically to the state regs regarding termination.
There is no way around it, and it doesn’t take long to figure out that it is cheaper to “rubber room” a bad teacher rather than go through the endless and expensive hearing process that is rigged in favor of the union.
Do teachers have tenure? They absolutely DO! And they are pretty much untouchable unless they are caught physically assaulting a student or commit a serious crime.
Your concept of tenure probably comes more from the university system than from the K-12 public school system; in most states K-12 teachers don’t have what you are calling tenure, they have something that is called a Reasonable Assurance of Contract Renewal at the end of each school year, this can be broken if the responsible administrator is willing to do their homework. As to having the necessary educational background to deal with the State Ed. Code; I have read the California State Ed. Code from cover to cover, and believe me if any state has a more complicated one written by more lawyers and over educated idiots I pity that state.
Any competent, reasonably educated person can read these documents, understand and apply them with only occasional help from the districts lawyer and every district retains a legal counselor. As to the problems concerning students, teachers and parents. I had to deal with them every single day; maintenance is more than re-wiring or re-plumbing a room. We had to deal with all State Ed. Code, Title 24 Rules and Regulations, Title 8 Health and Safety, State Handicapped and Architectural Barrier requirements, every thing from the correct amount of square footage per student per room to the correct cubic feet per minute of air exchange per person per room. I have had to argue with parents, teachers and my own administrators about what was required for students of various different placements, from severely handicapped to general ed. and ultimately beat them over their heads with their own state rules and regulations. I have been deposed and testified in court more times than I can even remember; against bad contractors, teachers and administrators, when they are wrong they are wrong and I won’t be intimidated. Most of the bad players in any school district have forgotten why they are there; to provide the tools necessary to present every student with an opportunity to learn. A parent who doesn’t care defeats the system, an administrator who is more concerned with a cushy hi-tech office defeats the system and a teacher who is just putting in time to retirement is a waste of space.
Yes, a good part of the problem is the way teachers and educational administrators are trained, a bigger part of the problem is the way they are selected and promoted. They are their own little world, and unfortunately have convinced the rest of the world that only they are competent to organize and rule their world.
Any reasonably good administrator can deal successfully with a union. Rule #1 Don’t violate the contract. Rule #2 Enforce it word for word in the contract, including the sections on disciplinary actions. Rule #3 When renegotiating, take a tough but reasonable line and read every word of every proposal. Rule #4 No soft or ambiguous language; every word of every sentence of every article must be clearly stated and not subject to every bodies interpretation of what the intent was. May means I can do it if I feel like it, shall means I don’t have a choice in the matter. Budgets are just a matter of history and costs. It doesn’t matter whether it’s 11 dollars or a 111 million dollars. You have historical costs, current costs and future anticipated cost increases. In any school district the costs are material and personnel payroll and benefits. The material costs can reasonably estimated by past, present and future requirements; every thing from fuel to wire to books to lunches. That’s why we do demographic projections, and the smart ones also pay attention to the commodities market and world demand. I saved my district about 2 million dollars on copper about 6 or 7 years ago by paying attention to the Chinese and world demand, buy the wire cheap and stockpile it for the projects we were planning.
Labor costs are determined by market demand and being sharp at the bargaining table. One last thing always set aside a certain percentage for unanticipated expenses. That percentage can also be based on past and current performance.
School districts don’t get to make a profit, their dollars come from the state so you always have a solid number to start from; unless you are in California, then you always low ball your initial numbers like I had to. Every problem you brought up can be taken care of by a competent, dedicated employee who is reasonably well educated. They don’t have to have degree in education; if they do good, but they still need real world experience outside the protected cloister of education only. They need to know how to hire, how to evaluate, how to fire, how to budget, and how to deal with people from all walks of life. 90% of it is just common sense.
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