Posted on 08/02/2011 5:54:56 AM PDT by Kaslin
The question is in no way meant to be provocative, let alone insulting. But the world, including vast numbers of Muslims, needs this question answered.
After having studied Arabic at college and lectured on comparative religion for decades, and having devoted years to writing my upcoming book comparing American values with leftist and Islamist values, I have become convinced of two things regarding Islam: It must be reformed, and it can be reformed.
Both suppositions are highly controversial. Few believing Muslims think that Islam needs to be reformed; the suggestion would strike most religious Muslims as absurd, if not insulting and ultimately blasphemous. And it would strike many non-Muslim critics of Islam as naive. As Lord Cromer, British consul-general in Egypt from 1883 to 1907, put it in a quote known to all Western students of Islam, "Islam reformed is Islam no longer."
Let's deal first with the question of whether Islam needs reforming.
The case for it is compelling. Here are a few reasons:
-- Majority-Muslim and Islam-based countries are not, and have not been, free societies. According to the 2010 Freedom House "Freedom in the World" survey, of the world's 47 Muslim-majority countries, only two are free, 18 are partly free, and 27 are not free. There is no honest explanation for this nearly total absence of liberty in Muslim countries that does not reflect in some way on Islam.
-- Muslim treatment of Jews and Christians in places like medieval Spain was morally far superior to the treatment of non-Christians by European Christians during the same period. But in the modern period, nowhere that Islam has controlled has afforded non-Muslims anywhere near the equality that non-Christians have taken for granted in the Christian world.
-- There was a burst of intellectual and scientific creativity in the Muslim world for a few hundred years, but then the opponents of reason came to dominate Islam, and with it came a loss of scientific and intellectual curiosity.
How could it have been otherwise? The dominant Muslim view was that the natural world had no laws. Everything that occurred did so solely because Allah willed it. If an arrow hit its target, it was not because of the archer's ability or wind patterns or laws of physics; it was because Allah willed it.
According to a United Nations report written by Arab scholars, the Arab world's lack of interest in the non-Arab and non-Muslim worlds is so great that in any given year comparatively tiny Greece translates more books into Greek than all the Arab countries combined translate into Arabic.
-- Regarding women, one cannot name a culture or religion in which the status of women is as low as it is in many Muslim societies. Moreover, the status of women has actually declined in many Muslim societies in the present generation. For example, the veil is more common in Egypt today than it was a hundred years ago.
-- In nearly every Muslim country in which non-Muslims live (usually Christians) -- from Nigeria to Egypt to Iraq -- they suffer persecution.
-- A very small percentage of Muslims are terrorists. But nearly every international terrorist is Muslim. And according to every poll I have seen, at least 70 million of the world's more than a billion Muslims support Islamist actions and theology.
-- Every state that calls itself an Islamic Republic and rules according to Islamic law is a totalitarian state, and it is usually a bloodthirsty one. Saudi Arabia is an example of the first; Taliban Afghanistan, Islamist Iran and Islamist Sudan are examples of both.
So, yes, Islam needs to be reformed. This is no insult to Muslims. Judaism and Christianity have undergone major changes. And needed to.
Can Islam be reformed? I do not agree with Lord Cromer. I believe it can.
What is necessary is that Muslim reformers:
1. Honestly acknowledge the Muslim moral record -- i.e. the lack of liberty in Muslim nations, the killing of large numbers of non-Muslims, the low status of women, etc. This does not necessitate rejecting the Quran or Islam.
2. Eschew incorporating Sharia into state law and oppose the establishment of any Islamic theocracy (which is not, in any event, Quran-based, according to moderate Muslims).
3. Publicly and unambiguously condemn all violence in the name of Islam, including violence against Israel.
4. Express a deep appreciation of the moral record of America, including its superb treatment of both its Muslim citizens and Muslim immigrants, along with a complete rejection of the Islamist notion that America is hostile to Muslims.
5. Fully accept the existence of Israel as a Jewish state, and distance themselves from the Muslim/Arab obsession with Israel.
At this very moment, there are Muslim reformers who believe and express all five of these propositions.
Examples include University of Delaware Professor Muqtedar Khan, who runs www.ijtihad.com: "American Muslims really have no reason to feel they are victims of anything ... ." The Muslim American community is thriving, proof of "America's benevolence and tolerance of Islam."
Another is Ahmed al-Rahim, a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia: "The most important message is that we condemn all kinds of hate speech, including anti-Semitism and anti-Americanism, and that we come out as boldly as possible against violence committed by Muslims in Iraq, in Israel ... . "
Regarding the Muslim obsession with Israel, Khan has written: "It is time the leaders of the American Muslim community woke up and realized that ... Islam is not about defeating Jews or conquering Jerusalem. It is about mercy, about virtue, about sacrifice and about duty. Above all, it is the pursuit of moral perfection."
Zainab Al-Suwaij, a refugee from Saddam Hussein's Iraq and executive director of the moderate American Islamic Congress, publicly declared that America "has given Iraqis the most precious gift any nation has ever given another -- the gift of democracy and the freedom to determine its own future."
And Dr. Zuhdi Jasser, a physician in Arizona whose parents fled Syria in the 1960s, is the founder and chairman of the board of the moderate American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD). A believing and practicing Muslim, Jasser advocates American values, promotes a Quran-based life to be practiced by the individual Muslim and never imposed by the state. He is courageous in confronting the Islamist Muslim groups that the mainstream media in the Western world have promoted to appear as the spokesmen for Western Muslims.
As Jasser says of organizations such as CAIR and other so-called Muslim civil rights organizations, "There was more concern with hate crimes against Muslims, which I think were relatively low; there was more focus on that than actually looking at the violence and the hate speech that has been committed in the name of Islam."
Islam is too important to deny its need to reform. And it is too important to deny its ability to ever reform.
And if it does reform, Muslims who have embraced America and American values will lead the way.
I was not saying it it should be underestimated or avoided. Kiddie porn is something that every parent unfortunately, must learn about in order to protect their children from it. But it is not something we need to tolerate in our communities either.
Knowing that passages such as these are in the Koran should educate all Christians that Moslems cannot be your true friends and still be faithful to Allah. So, at a minimum, be wary of everything they say and do.
Koran 5:49-51 “O you who believe Take not the Jews and Christians as your friends… and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, surely he is one of them.”
Koran 8:12 “I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. This is because they acted adversely to Allah and his messenger”
Koran 5:33-34 “The punishment of those who pit themselves against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement, except those who repent before you have them in your power..” Koran 9:5 “When the sacred months are past, kill those who join other gods wherever you find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them with every kind of ambush…..”
Koran 9:29-30 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah…. The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, and the Christians say Christ is the son of God…. Allah’s curse be on them….”
Koran 9:3 “Announce painful punishment on those who disbelieve..”
Koran 8:55 “Surely the vilest of animals in Allah's sight are those who disbelieve…”
Koran 8:39 “And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah”
Koran 9:29 “Fight those who do not believe in Allah… nor follow the religion of truth…out of those who have been given the book (Christians and Jews) until they pay the tax in acknowledgement of superiority and are in a state of subjugation”
Koran 9:123 “O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil)”
When I saw the picture of the troops marching, I couldn’t help myself from cringing and thinking ‘don’t they know about land mines’?
Until they burn their “Book of Stanic Verses”, islam will always remain a political movement like communism that hides behind the false veil of religion.
“A muslim man can have sexual pleasure with a little girl as young as a baby. But he should not penetrate her vaginally, however he can sodomize her”. (Tehriro vasyleh, fourth edition, Qom, Iran, 1990)
Your post was so right that I might just print it out and frame that post, Elendur.
(Applause!)
And I have a bridge to sell you.
I would recommend not using the word pedophile the thought police are everyplace now a days and there has been a number of people dragged through courts for using the word.
Just lay out the facts without using modern terms.
Pedophile in Mohammad's day only meant "friendly love" or "friendship" which doesn't means what it does today. So personally I don't think he was a Pedophile. He more then likely had sex with Aisha at six years old when he was 53 years old not likely at 9 yo. Aisha was there when they first had sex yet she never went to Medina which is where Aisha was when she was 9 yo. Either the scribe was wrong or Aisha is wrong and her mother wasn't there.
excellent analysis, trd
Perhaps -- if it ceases to be Islam.
Best simple answer, imo, in this thread.
Actually, one can reasonably argue that Islam has already been *reformed* (in a kinder, gentler & more modern ways) - The Baha'i Faith is a very good example of Islam *reformed* by the mentioned definition.
The Baha'i faith has its origins in Shia Islam (which is a main branch of Islam itself). It came into existence in the early 19th century in Iran. The original founders of the faith were ALL born & practicing Shia Moslems & thereafter most of its followers were born Shia Moslems too.
The faith based its original & core tenets on & drew from the Koran. It also very much recognizes & includes practices by other Abrahamic faiths, such as Judaism & Christianity. As well as incorporting elements & concepts from Zoroastrianism. The Baha'i faith is also messianic; which means it believes in the (second Coming) of the Messiah.
However, the Baha'i Faith, now, considers itself an "independent religion", yet an Abrahamic one. (The other classified Abrahamic religions being Judaism, Christianity & Islam).
But, the Baha'i faith, is not only Not recognized by Shia, Sunni or other mainstream sects of Islam & most moslems, but Baha'is are actively persecuted by them in a variety of Moslem countries, not just Iran. The Baha'is are commonly known as heretics & apostates in Moslem countries. That's since early 19th century to date.
I guess, when we've a firm definition of what is *reform* in Islam, and when, how & by whom that *reform* will be or should be officially accepted, then we may rejoice. Bearing in mind that Islam has been around for almost 1400 yrs already, w/out *reform*.
Exactly.
Sorry Cronos if I misunderstand your post. Some info:
>>>”Since the fall of the Caliphate in 1918, only in Iran has there been a merging.”<<<
Which Caliphate & Iran? Since Moslem invasion of Iran in the 7th century AD, Islam & State have been intertwined, continually.
>>>”In Saudi Arabia the Sauds are deeply tied in with the Wahabs and probably close to that merge but not completely.”<<<
“Saudi” Arabia, House of Saud, officially came into existence in 1932, with the help of the British, and as a result of an amalgamation between 2 Arabian tribes or kingdoms being Hejaz & Najd (Nejad). Before (during Ottoman Empire rule), and after, Arabia or Saudi Arabia has always been the cradle of Islam. Islam & State have Never been separated. No matter who ruled Arabia. Regardless of House of Saud (Salafis or Wahhabis).
>>>>”In the case of other Moslem states it is not merged to the extent that they are one and the same.”<<<<
Which Moslem countries?
Most Moslem countries I can think of have had Islam & State *very much* merged for centuries since Islamic invasion. (Turkey has been an exception since Ataturk). Unless you are referring to some colonial British or French influences & a few respective laws incorporated in countries such as Tunisia, Algeria, and other artificially created countries/borders such as Syria & Jordan. Regardless, a few British & French influenced laws, ultimately, mean not much at all in mentioned moslem countries.
Pedophile in Mohammad’s day only meant “friendly love” or “friendship” which doesn’t means what it does today. So personally I don’t think he was a Pedophile.
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first Steve, i admire your personal page.
you even have the info about the missing page in the divorce documents. good research!
...but as for Aisha, modern or ancient, it was NOT normal for an age 50+ man to have sex with an age 9 girl!
her father, believing Mohammad to be the personal messenger of God, still objected initially, saying she was too young.
(which is why Mohammad agreed to delay from age 6 until 9.)
the misinformation about it, is taquiyya.
i heard personally, an Imam near D.C. who was trained in prestigious Al-Azhar University in Egypt,
ADMIT that Aisha was age 9 when Mohammad had sex with her.
and Aisha’s OWN hadith, talks about how she was playing with her dolls when Mohammad took her away.
and it is true, that women married younger, in ancient times. but no culture EVER considered it normal, to have sex with children not even menstruating yet!
(and again, Aisha’s own family objected initially, instead of considering it an “honor”.)
.
also, IMPORTANT quotes by B4Ranch in #101 !
he and bayouranger have done great work at educating me and others here! many thanks to both of you.
and great post by aruanan. not just the Wahhabists, but several times, Islam has been “reformed”, to conform more stricter, and more with the original. And no further changes have been allowed, since the 4 schools were “locked”:
” Poor guy doesn’t appear to realize that Islam has been reformed and the militant jihadis and the Taliban are the result. Whatever was bad about it 100 years ago has been reformed to be so much worse. “
“modern secular” Turkey is another great example.
Islam NEVER becomes more peaceful and tolerant, except temporarily.
I also looked up to see if there was any marriages of extreme ages in western society. the most extreme age of the girl and how old the groom differences was with a 10 yo to a prince Isaac II Angelos of 27 year old and it was purely over politics.
Old China it was said the woman moved into the home of the groom before they are married so she can work the farm (which means they had to be old enough to work) but don't get married until she is older. I can not seem to find ages of these marriages.
thanks. and again, you do have great links on your page.
(that topic is another hobby of mine.)
as for marriage, it actually isn’t that rare for young children to be married. in India particularly, you can find even INFANT marriages. and in royal families.
...and Muslims use these, to mislead people.
i also once did research on ancient greece, china, etc.
and except for some stuff by a feminist with a clear agenda of hatred for men, found no evidence of any culture that endorsed marriage with actual sex, with a girl too young to menstruate.
so respectfully, i will stick with the label of “pedophile” for Mohammad.
especially since he “looked on her with desire” when she was age 6...
and, that is why i specifically said “sex”, not marriage:
...but as for Aisha, modern or ancient, it was NOT normal for an age 50+ man to have sex with an age 9 girl!
and, it is legal in some Muslim countries, for men to marry, (including sex!) with girls even younger than 9.
(like that brave girl that asked for a divorce, at age 8!)
Islam is the ONLY cause, i’ve ever found, for allowing this.
and it’s because the “perfect man”, that all men are told to emulate, married Aisha at 6, and had sex with her at 9...
Let me ask you a question.
Bob Hope would most likely labeled himself as a gay and happy person. If you were going to describe Bob Hope today would you use the terms of his day or what is PC today?
Personally I like the idea of not using PC terms of today for the time period we are speaking of. If that makes sense?
Pedophile was another term that changed it's meaning 180 degrees. The literal term used to mean "child friendship" during the time of Mohammad. Which is a complement for his day.
I refused to give Mohammad a complement even if that isn't the intent. Mohammad used a child for his sexual gratification he wasn't a friend of the child.
Personally I like the idea of not using PC terms of today for the time period we are speaking of. If that makes sense?
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ahh! now i understand.
yes, and i agree!
i’m old enough, that i remember liking the word “gay”.
but yes, i would describe Bob Hope in by modern definitions, not those of his day. language changes and evolves, even if we don’t like the changes.
and by the modern definition of pedophile as a disgusting sexual pervert, Mohammad (pbuh) IS!
(and much more.
raping a woman who’s husband had just been killed...
is outright evil. and he personally did that also, according to their OWN literature. which also talks about his playing with his wives WHILE they were on their periods...)
but to be crystal clear, i would be happy to use another term, that conveys the proper meaning, in any age.
if you know some concise alternate terms, i would seriously use them. for now, i will try to avoid pedophile, and perhaps use “sexual degenerate”.
It is very important to understand that Islam is not so much a religion then it is a political order.
i agreed with the previous.
and i agree with most of this.
Islam IS a social and political system.
however, i emphatically disagree,
that it is not so much a religion.
Islam began as a religious experience in the cave.
it grew as a RELIGION over many years.
the “revelations” grew, and ending up creating the complete system, as a byproduct.
Islam absolutely is a religion.
albeit one unlike any other in the world.
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