Michele Bachmann Should Not 'Get a Pass' on Past Membership in Anti-Catholic Church

Catholic Online ^ | 7/17/2011 | Deacon Keith A. Fournier

[Brices Crossroads]

The news and blogosphere is filled with responses to the July 14, 2011 story by Joshua Green, the Senior Editor of the Atlantic, entitled "Michele Bachmann's Church Says the Pope Is the Antichrist." That is because it raises a serious matter which should not be taken lightly, and one which the candidate must address. First, let me share some personal context. I am what is often called a "revert" to the Catholic Church, someone who returned to the Church of my childhood after a long search for the truth. I love being a Catholic Christian. I hold an undergraduate degree and a master's degree in Catholic theology. I am a dissertation away from obtaining a PhD in Catholic Moral Theology. I am also a member of the Clergy, a Deacon. However, I write this article as a private and very concerned citizen.

[buccaneer81]

And just does that have to do with Donohue?

What is your problem? You're bearing false witness.

[nickcarraway]

I am not bearing false witness. You think Cardinal Ratzinger was lying? Why don't you call the Catholic League tomorrow and ask them if the articles in which he was quoted as supporting civil unions was accurate. I bet they don't answer you.

What is so important about him to you?

[Just mythoughts]

One of the nice things about actually BEING a Catholic (as opposed to calling yourself one, like your in-laws) is that we are given specific instructions from our religious heirarchy. These include not voting for pro-choice candidates in political elections.

I sure would like to observe another Catholic attempt to tell my church going relatives they are NOT really Catholic. They take their 'church' activities very serious and spend as much time as a person of any other denomination does inside a church. Something somewhere got lost in the translation from their religious teachings because to them 'liberalism' demonstrates a wide berth to live and love of humanity...

BTW, the Catholic faith rightly concludes that ANY human being who lives life according to Christ's principles may be saved, but that knowing Him is the easiest path. That includes pious Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Wiccans, and atheists. If Mother Teresa is not in your Heaven because she answered to the Pope on earth, then you and your religion have the wrong idea about Heaven.

Well, I doubt anyone would call Solomon a Catholic, but he penned in Ecclesiastes that the 'soul/spirit' returns to the Maker that sent them regardless of how good or bad they lived this flesh journey. I cannot find anywhere in the whole of the Book that the decision as to who is or who is NOT in Heaven has anything to do with what any flesh being declares. At this point in my flesh journey my belief and understanding is that is what we are specifically told NOT to judge. I just know that there are 'some' that I am thankful I am NOT in a position of authority to have a say on their judgment Day.

The Heavenly Father said He was NOT a respecter of persons, so I am not sure why flesh beings think He turned over to them an authority to elevate to a 'god' like status other flesh beings.

[HiTech RedNeck]

It doesn’t stop there if they’re asinine enough to keep pressing the issue. Let’s look for any policy of Sarah Bachmann that says she will not meet with high ranking Roman Catholics or even with a pope (as George W. Bush did) in her capacity as US President. Now let’s look for ways that Obama damns America. Deal?

[HiTech RedNeck]

What does this very orthodox screed, which modulo the Roman Catholic specific references could be agreed to by devout Christians across myriad denominations, has a hoot in hades to do with BILL DONOHUE?

Cat fight. Big, ugly, mangy, puffed up cat fight.

[HiTech RedNeck]

The cardinal brings up the matter of civil homosexual unions and begins to coolly catalog a case of why they’re wrong, and exactly how faithful Christians can in serene conscience throw sand in the gears of civil homosexual union machines. The late noted Anglican apologist C. S. Lewis could have written something like this except for the Roman specific references.

If Cardinal Ratzinger switched gears somewhere in this thickly written tome and pronounced “oh, psst, don’t bother with everything else I said, I’m copacetic with homosexual civil unions and so should you be” then it’s up to you to point out the place, or get rudely barracked yourself.

[nickcarraway]

Bill Donahue claims to be some defender of Catholicism. Meanwhile, he supports homosexual Civil Unions. Forgive me for pointing out the inconsistency.

[nickcarraway]

then it’s up to you to point out the place, or get rudely barracked yourself.

No, I am claiming that Cardinal Ratzinger, quite correctly, explained why the Catholic Church doesn't support Civil Unions. Maybe you should ask Bill Donahue to, "point out the place, or get rudely barracked himself." Could you, in a straightforward manner tell me exactly which sin I've committed?

[Tamar1973]

Mr. K, you can “call BS” all you want but I had a very similar experience at a Catholic church in Singapore when I attended my college roommate’s wedding. The priest specifically told the non-Catholics in the church not to come up for communion.

[Sun]

Just so folks know what you are referring to, and there is no mistake that the Vatican is against Civil Unions, here’s an excerpt from your link:

“CONCLUSION

11. The Church teaches that respect for homosexual persons cannot lead in any way to approval of homosexual behaviour or to legal recognition of homosexual unions.

The common good requires that laws recognize, promote and protect marriage as the basis of the family, the primary unit of society. Legal recognition of homosexual unions or placing them on the same level as marriage would mean not only the approval of deviant behaviour, with the consequence of making it a model in present-day society, but would also obscure basic values which belong to the common inheritance of humanity. The Church cannot fail to defend these values, for the good of men and women and for the good of society itself.”

excerpt http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20030731_homosexual-unions_en.html

[daniel1212]

Re “one is justified by faith alone - that being the instrumental means of procurement - but not by a faith that was alone”

The “was” was an error on my part, and contradicts my statement that faith alone justifies, as being the instrumental means of procurement, and was supposed to read “not by a faith that IS alone,” that is, while to him “that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the unGodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” as “God imputeth righteousness without works,” (Rm. 4:5,6) yet this God-given faith is of a kind that shows itself in works. “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified,” (Rm 2:13) by an effectual faith.

Thus the P in the Calvinistic TULIP holds that the elect are those who Persevere in faith, which is demonstrated in works.

As the Reformers were wont to say, “Justification is by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone.” http://www.equip.org/bible_answers/does-james-teach-salvation-by-works-

Luther wrote: “Works are necessary for salvation but they do not cause salvation; for faith alone gives life.” (What Luther says, page 1509). - http://vivacatholic.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/by-faith-alone-but-not-by-faith-that-is-alone/

R. C. Sproul (primary Calvinistic authority) states in “Essential Truths of the Christian Faith” (p. 191)

The relationship of faith and good works is one that may be distinguished but never separated...if good works do not follow from our profession of faith, it is a clear indication that we do not possess justifying faith. The Reformed formula is, “We are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.” http://books.google.com/books?id=DC-TRU4tEvsC&pg=PT211&dq=R.+C.+Sproul+Faith+and+Works&hl=en&ei=cBUkTo6aOuXb0QHH0tC3Aw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=R.%20C.%20Sproul%20Faith%20and%20Works&f=false

Faith Alone, on page 156, Sproul wrote, “What James is saying is this: If a person says he has faith, but he gives no outward evidence of that faith through righteous works, his faith will not justify him. Martin Luther, John Calvin, or John Knox would absolutely agree with James. We are not saved by a profession of faith or by a claim to faith. That faith has to be genuine before the merit of Christ will be imputed to anybody. You can’t just say you have faith. True faith will absolutely and necessarily yield the fruits of obedience and the works of righteousness. http://effectualgrace.com/2010/11/29/can-paul-and-james-be-reconciled-on-the-matter-of-justification/

John Murray (who died in 1975), a Scottish theologian who spent most of his career at Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, states in “Redemption Accomplished and Applied:”

“Faith alone justifies but a justified person with faith alone would be a monstrosity which never exists in the kingdom of grace. Faith works itself out through love (Gal. 5:6). And Faith without works is dead (James 2:17-20).”

“It is living faith that justifies and living faith unites to Christ both in the virtue of his death and in the power of his resurrection. No one has entrusted himself to Christ for deliverance from the guilt of sin who has not also entrusted himself to him for deliverance from the power of sin.” - http://defendingcontending.com/2011/05/18/the-monstrosity-of-a-faith-that-is-alone/

And while a few did and so hold to antinomianism, historically works were emphasized and were manifest to a strong degree as an effect of evangelical faith. And in the past, rather than “easy believism, Puritans were accused of having a tendency to make the way to the cross too narrow, perhaps in reaction against the Antinomian controversy. Nathaniel Ward, step-son to Richard Rogers and a distinguished Puritan preacher himself, is recorded as responding to Thomas Hooker’s sermons on preparation for receiving Christ in conversion, by saying, ‘Mr. Hooker, you make as good Christians before men are in Christ as ever they are after’, and wishing, ‘Would I were but as good a Christian now as you make men while they are preparing for Christ.’ - http://www.the-highway.com/Early_American_Bauckham.html

Dr. John H. Gerstner Ph.D. from Harvard University, professor at Pittsburgh-Xenia theological Seminary for over 30 years, laments,

Romanists have always tried to hang antinomianism on Protestantism. They seem incapable even of understanding “justification is by faith alone, but not by the faith that is alone,” though that formula has been present since the Reformation.

If this were a true charge it would be a fatal one. If Protestantism thought that a sinner could be saved without becoming godly, it would be an absolute, damning lie. His name is “Jesus” for He saves His people from their sins, not in them. And He saves His people not only from the guilt of sin but from its dominating power as well. If a believer is not changed, he is not a believer. No one can have Christ as Savior for one moment when he is not Lord as well. We can never say too often: “Justification is by faith alone, but NOT by the faith that is alone.” Justification is by a WORKING faith.

Dr. Michael Horton, vice chairman of the Council of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, and associate professor of historical theology at Westminster Theological Seminary in California, writes,

“This debate, therefore, is not over the question of whether God renews us and initiates a process of gradual growth in holiness throughout the course of our lives. ‘We are justified by faith alone, but not by a faith that is alone,’ Luther stated, and this recurring affirmation of the new birth and sanctification as necessarily linked to justification leads one to wonder how the caricatures continue to be perpetuated without foundation. For instance, in the magazine published by Catholic Answers, This Rock, Leslie Rumble (April, 1993) makes the astounding claim concerning Luther that the German Reformer denied that a change takes place in the person who is justified. ‘He remains exactly as he was before’ and the believer is never transformed. This demonstrates a remarkable lack of familiarity with the Protestant position. We affirm conversion and the life-long process of growing in sanctifying grace. http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/are_we_justified_by_faith_alone.shtml

On this thread we have Catholics complaining about their faith being misrepresented, which it often is, even by RC themselves, but i hope i have clarified this issue here for you are regards what i meant, which is not a “heretical Lordship salvation view and represents a departure from the Reformation view that salvation was simply by faith (trust).”

The debate between Rm. 4 and Ja 2 and the sense of salvific “merit” Rome’s soteriology” is an extensive one that has been much dealt with her and elsewhere, (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/papalpresumption.html) and i will not expand upon it here, suffice to say that one must come to God as one damned because of his works, and destitute of any means and moral merit by which he escape his just eternal damnation in Hell fire, and gain eternal life with a holy God, and thus must cast all his faith in the mercy of God in Christ, trusting the risen Lord Jesus to save the contrite sinner by His sinless shed blood, with a faith that will effect obedience towards its object, things which accompany salvation.” (Heb. 6:9) And which fruit “justifies” or affirms one as having true faith, but works themselves are not the instrumental means of procuring justification, and cannot earn eternal life,

“For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)

Thanks be to God, to His glory.

[Ann Archy]

No it isn’t.....my Baptist friends do NOT think I am a Christian even though I m Catholic!!

[Ann Archy]

No it isn’t.....my Baptist friends do NOT think I am a Christian even though I m Catholic!!

[randita]

When the press and the Democratic establishment (which overlap) gave Obama a pass on his church allegiance, they lost all credibility in holding ANYONE EVER accountable for their religious leanings. If they attempt to, the ready response will always be a reference to Obama/Rev. Wright.

[pgkdan]

I’m a devout Catholic and will vote for Michele Bachmann with a clear conscience if she is the GOP nominee. I’ll support her in VA’s primary if she’s in and Cain is out.

[daniel1212]

The Catholic bishop Arnulf of Orleans was the first to apply the ‘man of sin’ prophecy in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9 to the papacy. The same interpretation was given by the Catholic abbot Joachim of Floris in 1190 and the archbishop Eberhard II in 1240. — EB Elliott, ‘Horae Apocalypticae’, volume IV, Appendix I, fifth edition, 1862; Leroy Edwin Froom, The Prophetic Faith Of Our Fathers, volume I (1950) pages 541-542 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicism_%28Christianity%29#Historicism_up_to_the_Reformation

[wmfights]

Great post.

I'm sure facts won't stand in the way of RC's proclaiming they are victims.

It's rather disappointing how easily the RC's are manipulated into attacking the best conservative candidates. They end up supporting the liberal almost every time and proclaim how conservative they are in the process. After 08 all we heard was how the surveys were wrong that 54% of RC's voted for obama and that the RCC is really really conservative. I suppose if they say it enough they will believe it.

[Red Boots]

Bachmann is too right-wing evangelical for my taste. These people do not believe that Catholics are Christians. They are smug in believing they are the only Christians who have been saved by the Precious Blood of Christ.

Any evidence of this ? Beside your wild imaginings, I mean.

Furthermore, at every evangelical church I have ever attended, all Christians are invited to take communion, no questions asked. That is not true at Catholic churches. Now, who is the exclusionary group of Christians again ?

[Diamond]

One of the things the leftists have done to undermine religion is to convince people (including some who are religious) that it is illegitimate for practitioners of one religion to believe that other religions are in some significant way false.

Great point, rogue. Another bump to the top. The notion that it is illegitimate for practitioners of one religion to believe that other religions are in some significant way false is, on its face, self-refuting.

You are right. It is literally, non-sense.

In the article, Keith A. Fournier, on one hand, writes of the "promising words" in the Annex that " the mutual condemnations of former times do not apply to the Catholic and Lutheran doctrines of justification" as they are presented in the Joint Declaration between the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church. Yet, a few paragraphs later he plays the victim card as if history was really just a one way street and the "mutual condemnations of former times" were not really mutual at all:

"To his credit, Joshua Green of the Atlantic footnoted this document. It is taken directly from the web site of the Lutheran Body to which Michelle Bachmann belonged for many years. She left the Church in the last year, submitting her request in writing. However, these Anti-Catholic positions were and are available to anyone who goes to that site, including Michele Bachmann. To use an old legal term, res ipse loquitor, the thing speaks for itself.

And what it says is not only repugnant to Catholics; it should be repugnant to other Christians, people of other faiths, and all people of good will. It participates in one of the oldest forms of Anti-Catholicism in America's history. It calls back to mind anti-Catholic groups such as the old "Know Nothings" in our Nation's past who drew caricatures of the Pope with horns."
[emphasis mine]

His paragraph ends there. There are no citations from Roman Catholic documents of that time period in America's history.

Aside from the incoherent nature of his victim double-standard, what is his point? After reading the article several times, the most I can gather is that there are certain forms of disagreement that are disagreeable to him and that he does not tolerate.

Cordially,

[daniel1212]

Interesting note is that the Catholic church is now experiencing respectable growth as many lost protestants are coming home to where they need to be.

Overall, the tide has and is going the opposite direction, with RC growth in the US being a result of immigration policies.

• A Catholic study in the year 2000 reported that of the 17 religious bodies in America with 1 million or more adherents in 2000, only six showed an increase in numbers while 10 showed a decline in numbers. Glenmary Research Centers. 3.5http://www.glenmary.org/grc/RCMS_2000/Catholic_findings.htm

• Among the gainers, four religious bodies showed double-digit increases-- between 16 percent for Catholics and 19 percent for Latter-Day Saints (Mormons). The Southern Baptist Convention grew at nearly 5 percent. ^

• Except for Catholics (which grew by immigration), all those bodies gaining members between 1990 and 2000 generally are considered “Conservative Protestants,” while most of those showing a decrease in number of adherents generally are considered “Moderate” or “Liberal” Protestants. ^

• In every state, the percent Catholic growth from 1990 to 2000 was very substantially greater than the general population growth [including a 45 percent increase in Arkansas and 111 percent increase in Nevada.] ^

• The Catholic population of the United States had fallen by nearly 400,000 in 2007, and suffered a slight membership loss in 2009 but increased 1.49 percent in 2010. [U.S. population growth rate in 2008 was 0.9 percent]. From 2007 to 2008 Roman Catholics grew from 17.33 percent of the global population to 17.4 percent in 2008. http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=5753 http://www.ncccusa.org/news/100204yearbook2010.html

• 2002 Statistics compiled by the U.S. bishops' Secretariat for Hispanic Affairs reported that 71 percent of the U.S. Catholic population growth since 1960 was due to Hispanics. The statistics are taken from U.S. Census reports and recent surveys of Hispanics. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1141/is_15_36/ai_59607715/pg_3/

• In 2008, 25:1% of respondents self-identified themselves as Catholic (versus 26.2 in 1990), with 50.9 belonging to Other Christian groups (from 60% in 1990). http://www.americanreligionsurvey-aris.org/reports/ARIS_Report_2008.pdf

• According to the American Bishops' count (as reported in WP) in their Official Catholic Directory 2010, which primarily rests on the parish assessment tax which pastors evaluate yearly according to the number of registered members and contributors, Catholics in the United States represented 22% of the US population.

• 2010 reports show the Church of God (Cleveland, Tenn.) - ranked 24^th largest - increased 1.76 percent, and the Assemblies of God (9^th) grew 1.27 percent. The “Latter-day Saints” [cult] (ranked 4^th largest) grew 1.71 percent, the Jehovah's Witnesses [cult] (23^rd ) said they were up 2 percent http://www.ncccusa.org/news/100204yearbook2010.html

• The Presbyterian Church (USA) shrank 3.3 percent Southern Baptist Convention, the largest denomination after Catholics, lost 0.24 percent of its membership and now stands at 16.2 million. It also declined in membership in the year prior. http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/catholic_church_shows_robust_growth_in_u.s._membership_new_report_says/

• In numbers (not percentage), Catholicism, which lists 68.1 million in the US, has experienced “the greatest net loss” of any major religious group. members. The 'had it' Catholics,” National Catholic Reporter ,Oct. 11, 2001, based on reports from the 2008 Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life survey and the National Council of Churches’ 2010 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches.

• 68% of those raised Roman Catholic still are Catholic (comparable with or better than the retention rates of other religious groups). 15% are now Protestant (9% evangelical); 14% are unaffiliated. Pew forum, Faith in Flux (April 27, 2009) http://pewforum.org/uploadedfiles/Topics/Religious_Affiliation/fullreport.pdf

• 44 percent of Americans have switched religious affiliations since childhood, mostly mainline Protestants. 7% who were raised Protestant are now unaffiliated; 15% now belong to a different Protestant faith. ^

• 80% of adults who were raised Protestant are still Protestant. ^

• 51% of Protestants from a different Protestant denomination cite a lack of spiritual fulfillment as a reason for leaving their childhood faith. 85% say they joined their current denominational faith because they enjoy the services and style of worship Only 15% left say they left because they stopped believing in its teachings. ^

• Those who have left Catholicism outnumber those who have joined the Catholic Church by nearly a four-to-one margin. 10.1% have left the Catholic Church after having been raised Catholic, while only 2.6% of adults have become Catholic after having been raised in a different faith.

• 4% of Americans raised Catholic are now unaffiliated; 5% are now Protestant. ^

• Over 75% of those who left Catholicism attended Mass at least once a week as children, versus 86% having done so who remain Catholics today.^

• Regarding reasons for leaving Catholicism, less than 30% of former Catholics agreed that the clergy sexual abuse scandal played a role in their departure. ^

• 71% of Protestants converts from Catholicism said that their spiritual needs were not being met in Catholicism, with 78% of Evangelical Protestants concurring, versus 43% of those now unaffiliated. ^

• 50% of all Protestants converts from Catholicism said they stooped believing in Catholicism's teachings overall. Only 23% (20% now evangelical) were unhappy about Catholicism's teachings on abortion/homosexuality (versus 46% of those now unaffiliated); 23% also expressed disagreement with teaching on divorce/remarriage; 16% (12% now evangelical) were dissatisfied with teachings on birth control, 70% said they found a religion the liked more in Protestantism.

• 55% of evangelical converts from Catholicism cited dissatisfaction with Catholic teachings about the Bible was a reason for leaving Catholicism, with 46% saying the Catholic Church did not view the Bible literally enough.

• 81% of all Protestant converts from Catholicism said they enjoyed the service and worship of Protestant faith as a reason for joining a Protestant denomination, with 62% of all Protestants and 74% Evangelicals also saying that they felt God's call to do so. ^

• 42% of those now unaffiliated stated they do not believe in God, or most religious teaching. ^

• 54% of “millennial generation” Catholics (born in 1982 or later) are Hispanics, while 39% are non-Hispanic whites. On the other hand, 76% of “pre-Vatican II generation” Catholics (born 1943 or earlier) are non-Hispanic whites, while 15% are Hispanics. Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) at Georgetown University, September, 2010 . http://www.osv.com/tabid/7621/itemid/6850/Openers-More-evidence-of-the-browning-of-US-Cat.aspx

• 68% of all Latinos in the U.S. identity as Catholics. Changing Faiths: Latinos and the Transformation of American Religion http://pewforum.org/Changing-Faiths-Latinos-and-the-Transformation-of-American-Religion.aspx Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion - American Piety in the 21 Century – September 2006 . http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf

• Latinos comprised 32 percent of all U.S. Catholics in 2008, versus to 20 percent in 1990. However, Catholic identification has slipped from 66 percent in 1990 to 60 percent in 2008. There has also been a significant rise in the number of Latinos who do not adhere to a religion. The longer a Latino has lived in the United States, the less likely he or she is to be Catholic. Study of Secularism in Society and Culture at Trinity College, http://theamericano.com/2010/03/18/new-report-on-u-s-latino-religious-identification/

• 18% of all Latinos say they have either converted from one religion to another or to no religion at all. http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/75.4.pdf

• 1,000 Mexicans left the Catholic Church every day between 2000 and 2010, a decline that has continued uninterrupted over the past 60 years, from 98.21 of the population to 83.9 percent today. Latin American Herald Tribune, March 10, 2011, based upon census data and study by sociologist and historian Roberto Blancarte of Colegio de Mexico and the National Autonomous University of Mexico

• The percentage of of Protestants and Evangelicals rose from 1.28% in 1950 to close to 8% of the total population in 2010, (excluding so-called Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons). 5.2 million say they profess no religion. ^

• This decline is seen as extending across the region (Catholics represent between 55% to 73% in Central America, 70% in Brazil, 50% in Cuba and Uruguay).^

• Almost 20% of all Latino American Catholics have left the Roman Catholicism, with 23 percent of second-generation Latino Americans doing so. http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf

• 54% of Hispanic Catholics describe themselves as charismatic Christians. http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=75

• 51% of Hispanic Evangelicals are converts, and 43% are former Catholics. 82% of Hispanics cite the desire for a more direct, personal experience with God as the main reason for adopting a new faith. Among those who have become evangelicals, 90% say it was a spiritual search for a more direct, personal experience with God was the main reason that drove their conversion. Negative views of Catholicism do not appear to be a major reason for their conversion. ^

• A study which broke down Mainline Protestants, Evangelical Protestants, and non-Hispanic Catholics into the three subgroups of traditionalists, centrists, and modernists, found that 5.3 percent of the respondents qualified as traditionalist Catholic, 5.4 percent as centrist Catholics, and 4.9 percent of respondents are modernist Catholics. The Henry Institute, A Pre-Election Analysis http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/survey_finds_some_catholics_looking_for_a_political_home/

• Latinos Catholics constituted 6.8 percent of the survey respondents. ^

• About 68 percent of traditionalist Catholics opposed gays and lesbian marriage, versus 50% of centrist Catholics and 65 percent of modernist Catholics. ^

• Traditionalist Catholics disagreed that “abortion should be legal and solely up to the woman to decide” 71 to 21 percent, centrist Catholics agreed 54 to 40 percent, and modernist Catholics agreed 80-16 percent. ^

• Catholic Latinos, overwhelmingly identify as Democratic, 57 percent to 15 percent. Religion and the 2008 Election: ^

• Evangelical Protestants are the most politically conservative Christian tradition. Within each tradition, those with literal views of the Bible are more politically conservative than is their tradition overall. Catholics that are Biblical literalists (11.8%) hold more conservative political views than the Catholic population in general does. The Biblical literalist Catholic is as politically conservative as the Biblical literalist who is Evangelical (47.8%) or Mainline Protestant. (11.2%) American Piety in the 21st Century, Baylor Institute for Studies of Religion http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/33304.pdf

• More stats: http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html

• Meanwhile it can be asked if Bachmann's church ever taught this:

• Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section III, Indifferentism, Latitudinarianism, #15. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

• Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors):

• [It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship." Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern Liberalism, #78. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

• Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] In the case of conflicting laws enacted by the two powers (Church and civil), the civil law prevails." Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, # 42. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

• Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] The Church ought to be separated from the State, and the State from the Church." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus Issued in 1864, Section VI, Errors About Civil Society, Considered Both in Itself and in its Relation to the Church, #55. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

• Pope Pius X VEHEMENTER NOS: That the State must be separated from the Church is a thesis absolutely false, a most pernicious error....

• Hence the Roman Pontiffs have never ceased, as circumstances required, to refute and condemn the doctrine of the separation of Church and State...

• When the law, by the suppression of the Budget of Public Worship, exonerates the State from the obligation of providing for the expenses of worship, it violates an engagement contracted in a diplomatic convention, and at the same time commits a great injustice. Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906. http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Pius10/p10law.htm

• Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302: Certainly the one who denies that the temporal sword is in the power of Peter has not listened well to the word of the Lord commanding: 'Put up thy sword into thy scabbard' [Mt 26:52]. Both, therefore, are in the power of the Church, that is to say, the spiritual and the material sword, but the former is to be administered _for_ the Church but the latter by the Church; the former in the hands of the priest; the latter by the hands of kings and soldiers, but at the will and sufferance of the priest. Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302 http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/b8-unam.html

• Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors): "[It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect." Section V, Errors Concerning the Church and Her Rights, #24. http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

• “...having once found the true Church, private judgment of this kind ceases; having discovered the authority established by God, you must submit to it at once. There is no need of further search for the doctrines contained in the Christian Gospel, for the Church brings them all with her and will teach you them all. You have sought for the Teacher sent by God, and you have secured him; what need of further speculation?

• “...outside the pale of Rome there is not a scrap of additional truth of Revelation to be found.”

• “He willingly submits his judgment on questions the most momentous that can occupy the mind of man-----questions of religion-----to an authority located in Rome.”

• “Absolute, immediate, and unfaltering submission to the teaching of God's Church on matters of faith and morals-----this is what all must give..”

• “The Vicar of Christ is the Vicar of God; to us the voice of the Pope is the voice of God. This, too, is why Catholics would never dream of calling in question the utterance of a priest in expounding Christian doctrine according to the teaching of the Church;”

• “He is as sure of a truth when declared by the Catholic Church as he would be if he saw Jesus Christ standing before him and heard Him declaring it with His Own Divine lips.” — Henry G. Graham, "What Faith Really Means", (Nihil Obstat:C. SCHUT, S. T.D., Censor Deputatus, Imprimatur: EDM. CANONICUS SURMONT, D.D.,Vicarius Generalis. WESTMONASTERII, Die 30 Septembris, 1914 )

• "The intolerance of the Church toward error, the natural position of one who is the custodian of truth, her only reasonable attitude makes her forbid her children to read or to listen to heretical controversy, or to endeavor to discover religious truths by examining both sides of the question."

• “The reason of this stand of his is that, for him, there can be no two sides to a question which for him is settled; for him, there is no seeking after the truth: he possesses it in its fulness, as far as God and religion are concerned. His Church gives him all there is to be had; all else is counterfeit..he must refuse to be liberal in the sense of reading all sorts of Protestant controversial literature.”

• “Holding to Catholic principles how can he do otherwise? How can he consistently seek after truth when he is convinced that he holds it? Who else can teach him religious truth when he believes that an infallible Church gives him God's word and interprets it in the true and only sense?”

• Once he does so (joins the Catholic church), he has no further use for his reason. He enters the Church, an edifice illumined by the superior light of revelation and faith. He can leave reason like a lantern at the door.” Explanation of Catholic Morals, A Concise, Reasoned, and Popular Exposition of Catholic Morals, by John H. Stapleton, p 76, Benziger Brothers, NY, 1913. (John H. Stapleton, Explanation of Catholic Morals, Chapter xxiii. the consistent believer (1904); Nihil Obstat. Remy Lafort, Censor Librorum. Imprimatur, John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York )

• "Obey blindly , that is, without asking reasons. Be careful, then, never to examine the directions of your confessor....In a word, keep before your eyes this great rule, that in obeying your confessor you obey God. Force yourself then, to obey him in spite of all fears. And be persuaded that if you are not obedient to him it will be impossible for you to go on well; but if you obey him you are secure. But you say, if I am damned in consequence of obeying my confessor, who will rescue me from hell? What you say is impossible." St. Alphonsus De Liguori, True Spouse of Christ, p 352, Benziger Brothers, NY

• We furthermore forbid any lay person to engage in dispute, either private or public, concerning the Catholic Faith. Whosoever shall act contrary to this decree, let him be bound in the fetters of excommunication. — Pope Alexander IV (1254-1261) in “Sextus Decretalium”, Lib. V, c. ii: http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/archive/index.php/t-51631.html

• * Do not converse with heretics even for the sake of defending the faith, for fear lest their words instil their poison in your mind. Bl. Isaias Boner of Krakow (Polish, Augustinian priest, theologian, professor of Scripture, d. 1471)

• Thus, the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith by corrupting it, such as heretics, or by renouncing it, such as apostates.

• “the Church forbids the faithful to communicate with those unbelievers who have forsaken the faith they once received, either by corrupting the faith, as heretics, or by entirely renouncing the faith, as apostates, because the Church pronounces sentence of excommunication on both.” St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica

• Is it permitted for Christians to be present at, or to take part in, conventions, gatherings, meetings, or societies of non-Catholics which aim to associate together under a single agreement everyone who, in any way, lays claim to the name of Christian? In the negative! - (Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos)

• "One must neither pray nor sing psalms with heretics, and whoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergy or layman: let him be excommunicated". (Council of Carthage)

• "No one shall pray in common with heretics and schismatics" - Council of Laodicea.

• Rome, Italy, Feb 19, 2010 / 02:03 pm (CNA).- The president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, Cardinal Walter Kasper, announced this week that Pope Benedict XVI will visit the Evangelical Lutheran Church located in Rome on March 14 for an ecumenical celebration.