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New York archbishop: ‘believers will soon be hauled into court’ for questioning gay ‘marriage’
LifeSiteNews ^ | 7/8/11 | Kathleen Gilbert

Posted on 07/08/2011 12:31:34 PM PDT by wagglebee

NEW YORK, July 8, 2011 (LifeSiteNews.com) - American Christians may one day find themselves facing legal penalties simply for believing marriage can only exist between a man and a woman, a fate already suffered by believers in other countries, said the leader of America’s most influential Catholic pulpit this week.

Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York reflected on his blog Thursday on the recent legalization of gay “marriage” in New York, and what repercussions true marriage supporters can expect in the future.

He called it “haunting” that the marriage bill became law on the day Catholics celebrate the feast of the Birth of John the Baptist, “whom King Herod would behead because the saint dared to defend the God-given truth about marriage.”

“If the experience of those few other states and countries where this is already law is any indication, the churches, and believers, will soon be harassed, threatened, and hauled into court for their conviction that marriage is between one man, one woman, forever, bringing children into the world,” wrote the archbishop.

Christians in the UK, Canada, and elsewhere have lost their jobs, been dragged through lengthy “human rights” proceedings, and faced steep fines for questioning the dangerous homosexual lifestyle, declining to facilitate gay “marriages,” or even failing to acknowledge “gay pride” events.

Dolan pointed out that editorials nationwide have been calling for an end to the Catholic Church’s religious liberties as a growing percentage of Americans consider defending true marriage a form of discrimination against homosexuals. The archbishop insisted the Church’s position was “never anti-gay.”

“As I replied recently to a reporter who asked if I had any message to the gay community, ‘Yes:  I love you.  Each morning I pray with and for you and your true happiness and well-being,’” he recalled.

Meanwhile, he says, the true aggressors have proven to be the gay “marriage” lobby.

“As one respected columnist has observed, the problem is not homophobia but theophobia — a hatred by some of God, faith, religion, and the Church,” he said.

Although Dolan said his brother bishops in New York were “particularly prophetic” in acknowledging an uphill battle on the marriage issue, Dolan said Christians would not back down on the truth.

“Like St. Thomas More, we’re willing to take the heat and even lose our head from following a conscience properly formed by God’s revelation and the teaching of His Church, even if it is politically incorrect, and clashes with the King’s demands to re-define marriage,” he said.

Read Archbishop Dolan’s full post here.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antichristian; antireligion; atheismandstate; catholic; celebratesin; churchandstate; culturewar; homosexualagenda; moralabsolutes; orwelliannightmare; politicalcorrectness
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To: fwdude; OpusatFR
"My spirit does not accept that."

God's Spirit doesn't either, so she's in good company.

I prefer to reply by simply handing the offender a pair of bolts and telling them, "If you ever get those screwed together, I'll accept your argument. By the way; no additional hardware, no glue, and no welding allowed."

81 posted on 07/08/2011 5:14:03 PM PDT by HKMk23 (YHVH NEVER PLAYS DEFENSE! WHICH MEANS; IF YOU'RE ON DEFENSE, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.)
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To: PetroniusMaximus
It’s going to come to blood.

It did.

About two thousand years ago.

And it will, again.

  1  Who is this that cometh from Edom, with
red garments from Bozrah?  He is glorious in his
apparel, and walketh in his great strength.

I speak in righteousness, and am mighty to save. 

  2 Wherefore is thine apparel red, and thy gar-
ments like him that treadeth in the winepress?

  3  I have trodden the winepress alone, and of 
all people there was none with me: for I will tread 
them in mine anger, and tread them under foot in 
my wrath, and their blood shall be sprinkled upon 
my garments, and I will stain all my raiment. 
  4  For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and 
the year of my redeemed is come. 
  5  And I looked, and there was none to help, 
and I wondered that there was none to uphold: 
therefore mine own arm helped me, and my wrath 
itself sustained me. 
  6  Therefore I will tread down the people in my 
wrath, and make them drunken in mine indignation, 
and will bring down their strength to the earth.

Isaiah 63:1-7, 1599 Geneva

82 posted on 07/08/2011 5:20:14 PM PDT by HKMk23 (YHVH NEVER PLAYS DEFENSE! WHICH MEANS; IF YOU'RE ON DEFENSE, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.)
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To: HKMk23
CORRECTION: Isaiah 63:1-6
83 posted on 07/08/2011 5:21:37 PM PDT by HKMk23 (YHVH NEVER PLAYS DEFENSE! WHICH MEANS; IF YOU'RE ON DEFENSE, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.)
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To: CynicalBear; wagglebee
I would suggest it’s closer to what it was as Noah was building the Ark.

OK. YOU just gave me a serious case of the willies.

You probably know full well what you just posted, but — on the off-chance that you don't, and for the benefit of uninformed readers — allow me:

  37  But as the days of Noah were, so likewise shall
      the coming of the Son of man be. 
  38  For as in the days before the flood, they did 
      eat and drink, marry, and give in marriage, unto the day 
      that Noah entered into the Ark, 
  39  And knew nothing, till the flood came, and 
      took them all away, so shall also the coming of the 
      Son of man be.

Matthew 24:37-39, 1599 Geneva

84 posted on 07/08/2011 5:38:38 PM PDT by HKMk23 (YHVH NEVER PLAYS DEFENSE! WHICH MEANS; IF YOU'RE ON DEFENSE, YOU'RE DOING SOMETHING WRONG.)
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To: livius

To be successful the defense of marriage movement must be led by the laity just like the pro-life movement.I became more convinced of this when I heard Bishop Dimarzio explain what he is doing in Brooklyn.He is banning the politicians that voted FOR and Against the same -sex marriage bill from speaking at Catholic ficilities in Brooklyn.


85 posted on 07/08/2011 5:44:40 PM PDT by ardara
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To: GreyFriar
Yep, part of plot to outlaw Christianity and morality.

And the remaining "Christian" churches will be leftists, as many of them are already.

86 posted on 07/08/2011 5:52:06 PM PDT by zot
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To: HKMk23
>>You probably know full well what you just posted, but — on the off-chance that you don't, and for the benefit of uninformed readers<<

And don’t forget that there was rampant sodomy also just as there was before Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed.

The cool part is that the good guys were taken out before the destruction.

87 posted on 07/08/2011 6:05:10 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: wagglebee
'believers will soon be hauled into court’

Archbishop Dolan, remarks like this and that vapid "Statement of The Bishops" that went a week ago are irresponsible and disappointing.

Is this the best you can do -- bellyache about (or even prophesy) mall the hardships Catholics are going to go through, instead pointing the way forward, constructively and victoriously?

Gawdallmighty what a defeatist.

88 posted on 07/08/2011 6:34:23 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Lovers ARE fighters)
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To: the invisib1e hand

mall >> all.


89 posted on 07/08/2011 6:35:00 PM PDT by the invisib1e hand (Lovers ARE fighters)
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To: ardara

He’s banning both sides? That’s strange. Did he explain why?


90 posted on 07/08/2011 7:12:05 PM PDT by livius
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To: Graybeard58

They do withdraw fellowship though.


91 posted on 07/08/2011 9:00:54 PM PDT by scrabblehack
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To: scan59

Ping


92 posted on 07/08/2011 9:53:22 PM PDT by babyfreep
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To: redgolum
You are very naive. Ask any pastor or church board. The concern with losing the tax exempt status for speaking the wrong thing is something they are all concerned about. That has been the case in every church I have attended (outside of my old small rural church I grew up in). I know of one that got into a dust up in preaching an anti abortion sermon. Seems that the pro aborts saw it as an endorsement of a certain candidate, and reacted to it with a complaint.

We apparently attend very different types of churches. I'm a deacon in my (evangelical Christian) church and my pastor and the church Elders would rather revert to holding church services in private homes - as the First century church did - and give up the nice building and some effective programs than submit the church to the whims of the secular state government. We are willing to submit to government authority in matters not germane to salvation but homosexual behavior is clearly a sin and cannot be condoned by the church recognizing 'gay marriage', even if the government legalizes the practice. If that threatens the church's tax-exempt status, so be it. We do not intend to sell our bible-based beliefs for a tax exemption from the state. I submit that those who assume the majority of churches (of all faiths) would do so are naive - and mistaken. However, I trust it will never come to that, but these days, I'm not as optimistic as I once was.

93 posted on 07/08/2011 10:02:37 PM PDT by Jim Scott
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To: wagglebee

Dolan would be more effective if he weren’t obstinately refusing to fulfill one of his obligations: to obey Canon 915. He still treats it as a dead letter. He is quite outspoken about gay marriage, but he is silent on the subject of sacrilegious Communions by pro-abortion/pro-gay-marriage Catholics. He reminds me of Oliver Wendell Holmes’s aphorism: “Give us the luxuries of life, and we will dispense with the necessities.” Dolan does many good things, but he ignore a grave OBLIGATION, to obey Canon 915. www.tinyurl.com/canon915


94 posted on 07/08/2011 11:01:51 PM PDT by Arthur McGowan (In Edward Kennedy's America, federal funding of brothels is a right, not a privilege.)
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To: wagglebee

Next day BUMP!


95 posted on 07/09/2011 6:20:21 AM PDT by ConservativeStLouisGuy (11th FReeper Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Unnecessarily Excerpt)
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To: ConservativeStLouisGuy
Here's the Archbishops' blog post....

Some Afterthoughts (Archbishop Timothy Dolan of New York)

Almost two weeks ago — hauntingly, on the Feast of the Birth of John the Baptist, whom King Herod would behead because the saint dared to defend the God-given truth about marriage — our state sadly attempted a re-definition of marriage.  Is there anything left to say?

Yes.

For one, thanks to those courageous millions who valiantly fought this unfortunate project of social engineering.  You can hold your heads high.  Sanely, civilly, thoughtfully, vigorously . . . you did not cave-in.  The forces on the other side were a Goliath indeed — with tons of money, “glitterati” from entertainment circles, political powerbrokers, and the media — but you proved a worthy David.

You will understand my special word of gratitude to people of faith — evangelicals, Mennonites, Jews, Moslem, Catholics, Amish, and so many more, led often by African-American and Latino believers — who simply believe that marriage is a given, at the very foundation of civilization, which the state has the duty to defend and protect, not to mutate.

My brother bishops of New York were particularly prophetic.  When I arrived here a little over two-years ago, they told me realistically that we faced a looming battle over the defense of marriage.  They advised me that the odds were not in our favor, and that some experts were even suggesting that we give-in and not put up a fight.

But they were also resolute in their conviction that such would have been a dereliction of duty.  As Blessed John Paul II often commented, the Church is “counter-cultural,” like Jesus, often at odds with what passes as chic, enlightened, and progressive.  In their writings, sermons, personal lobbying, interviews, and our common statements — backed up by indefatigable efforts by our New York State Catholic Conference, bolstered by ecumenical and inter-religious cooperation, and, especially, supported by countless thousands of our faithful Catholic people (one legislator told me he received 47,000 e-mails against the measure from the Catholic Advocacy Network) — the bishops were on the frontiers.  We have been bloodied, and bruised, and, yes, for the moment, we have been defeated.  But, we’re used to that.  So was the Founder of our Church.

Two, the Church neither has nor wants political “clout.”   As Cardinal John O’Connor commented, “The only ‘clout’ the Church really has is God’s Truth, the assurance of His grace, and the simple yet sincere conviction of our people.”  Blessed John Paul II again reminds us that “The Church never imposes, she only proposes.”  And as our current Holy Father has often observed, all the Church wants is its freedom to serve humanity by bringing the light of the gospel to the world.

But, three, we do worry indeed about this freedom of religion.  Editorials already call for the removal of guarantees of religious liberty, with crusaders calling for people of faith to be coerced to acceptance of this redefinition.  If the experience of those few other states and countries where this is already law is any indication, the churches, and believers, will soon be harassed, threatened, and hauled into court for their conviction that marriage is between one man, one woman, forever, bringing children into the world.

Four, the real forces of “intolerance” were unmasked here.  The caricature, of course, is that those defending traditional marriage were the right-wing bigots and bullies.  However, as one out-of-state journalist, who was following the debate closely, commented to me, “From my read of the columns, blogs, and rhetoric, it’s not your side that’s lobbing the grenades.”  A Catholic who wrote to criticize me for my defense of marriage still conceded, “But I must confess that I am sickened by the amount of anti-Catholic venom that has surfaced in this debate.”  As one respected columnist has observed, the problem is not homophobia but theophobia — a hatred by some of God, faith, religion, and the Church.

Five, though, if we did hurt anybody in our defense of marriage, I apologize. We tried our best to insist from the start that our goal was pro-marriage, never anti-gay.  But, I’m afraid some within the gay community were offended. As I replied recently to a reporter who asked if I had any message to the gay community, “Yes:  I love you.  Each morning I pray with and for you and your true happiness and well-being.  I am honored that so many of you are at home within our Catholic family, where, like the rest of us, we try, with the help of God’s grace and mercy, to conform our lives to Jesus and His message.  If I have offended any of you in my strenuous defense of marriage, I apologize, and assure you it was unintentional.

Point six, the Church has always stood-up for marriage — one man and one woman, united in lifelong and faithful love, leading to new life in children – whenever and wherever it was in danger.  Veterans my age and over can remember sixty years ago when we fought widespread, no-fault divorce, convinced it would lead to a cheapening of the marriage bond and harm our kids (as, of course, scholarly studies now report has, indeed, happened).  Recall how the Church resisted the “contraceptive mentality,” fearing it would rupture the sacred bond between love and the procreation of children.  Then, remember how the Church sounded the alarm over rising rates of promiscuity, adultery, pre-marital sex, and cohabitation prior to or instead of marriage.  And now we ring the steeple bell again at this latest dilution of the authentic understanding of marriage, worried that the next step will be another redefinition to justify multiple partners and infidelity.  If you think I’m exaggerating, within days of the passage of this bill, one major newspaper ran a flattering profile of a proponent of what was called “nonmonogamy.” Apparently, “nonmonogamy” is the idea that society is unrealistic to think that one man and one woman should remain faithful in marriage, and that openness to some infidelity should be the norm!

Let me say it again. None of this is anti-anybody, but simply pro marriage.

(By the way, as Professor Robert George at Princeton University eloquently points out, in warning about promiscuity, divorce, cohabitation instead of marriage, adultery, and “same-sex marriage,” the Church is hardly some shrill, bitter, reactionary, naysaying prude, but actually prophetically right-on-target.  Recent studies by people such as Myron Magnet and Kay Hymowitz show that the weakening of stable marriage and families is the cause of most social and cultural woes, especially burdensome on poor women and children.)

Finally, last point, for us in the Church, not much changes.  We continue to hold fast to the God-given definition of marriage, and acknowledge that no unfortunate legislative attempt can alter reality and morality.  Yes, we have a big catechetical challenge, in that we have to admit that quite a few people no longer hold to this timeless moral truth.  (Although I still believe most people do; thus the fear of a referendum on the issue by those who still claim this is a “grassroots movement” sweeping the nation.)  Yes, we do have our work cut out for us, as even some Catholics, and, scandalously, even political leaders who claim to be Catholic, tell us the Church is “out of it,” and has no claim on truth.

So, we try our best to witness to the truth, encouraging our married couples and their kids to be loving, radiant, “lights to the world.”  We acknowledge that, as St. Augustine taught, if something is wrong, even if everybody else is doing it, it’s still wrong; and, if something is right, even if nobody else is doing it anymore, it’s still right.  Like St. Thomas More, we’re willing to take the heat and even lose our head from following a conscience properly formed by God’s revelation and the teaching of His Church, even if it is politically incorrect, and clashes with the King’s demands to re-define marriage.


96 posted on 07/09/2011 6:22:33 AM PDT by ConservativeStLouisGuy (11th FReeper Commandment: Thou Shalt Not Unnecessarily Excerpt)
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To: livius

I believe they were Catholic; Gore, Kerry, and Obama carried the “Catholic” states...


97 posted on 07/09/2011 2:26:40 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: Westbrook

“Maybe they should have publically excommunicated pro-homo and pro-abort politicians like the Cuomos, Kennedys, etc.”

I couldn’t agree with you more; they bring scandal to the Church. While some here have maintained that they’ve automatically excommunicated themselves, at that point they can’t receive Communion (but still do).


98 posted on 07/09/2011 2:28:40 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: chesley

“That being said, the Catholic Church, along with those Protestant churches that preach the true Gospel, and other groups that follow the dictates of their religion instead of those of secular liberalism, are probably in for a hard time over the coming years.”

I agree; at least the Protestant churches are fragmenting between true Christians and those who directly oppose the messages of the Bible. The Catholic Church, in an effort to preserve unity, usually refuses to publicly set the record straight on many issues, leading to a confusion that damns souls; I know God is the judge, but I can’t believe any Catholic who votes for a pro-abortion candidate isn’t complicit in murder. They are worse than those who lived their lives uneffected by the Bolsheviks and Nazis killed their millions, because they are playing an active role in putting those politicians in power.

The hierarchy has too often allowed it’s extremists to put abortion on par with “social justice” (as though the Dems have bettered anyone’s lives in the past decades); the Vatican should have replaced most of the hierarchy en masse when Dems were repeatedly carrying “Catholic” states. It is scandalous.


99 posted on 07/09/2011 2:34:59 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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To: NYer

I thought the schism with the Eastern Church occurred around 1000 AD, but I get the point. To equate “Reverends” Sharpton & Jackson with any serious adult clergy is laughable; they are as Christian as Osama Bin Laden.

What keeps the Orthodox Jews and Muslims more strongly opposed to homosexuality is the fact that the New Testament doesn’t exist for them; they didn’t have God’s original messages watered down with interpretations of Jesus Christ, who even the most die-hard liberal can’t deny ended many lessons with, “Go now, and sin no more”. When “Catholics” point to the lack of quotes from Christ itself regarding homosexuality, I remind them that He is part of the Trinity that brought destruction to Sodom & Gomorrah (which the media is bending itself over backwards trying to explain away with natural phenomena) and Leviticus.

Not that facts will get in their way...


100 posted on 07/09/2011 2:42:16 PM PDT by kearnyirish2
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