I guess you really don’t have any choice but deny the evidence because the facts weigh against your assertions. How could you acknowledge the death and suffering from Chernobyl and Russia’s policies and still insist that those of us who say there is cause for concern are irrational. You are backed into a corner so you must insist that history never happened.
I SAID: “ the thousands of people in Russia who die from Chernobyl and other Russian nuclear pollution hot spots.”
YOU SAID: I thought we were talking about deaths from energy production, not weapons.”
Actually I was specific about nuclear pollution - that is what happens to radioactive material once it is no longer in use - doesn’t matter whether it was from weapons or energy production. Apparently you decline to acknowledge the catastrophic effects of Chernobyl in the documentary I linked to. And the links of how Russian’s treat nuclear wastes - the ‘so many people were dying and sick’ that they relocated towns along a radioactive river...never happened? Hmmm...I can see the strength in your tactic...just say it never happened. How simple.
“And focusing on what may or may not have happened in the secretive Soviet Union is hardly relevant, both because as you say we really can’t know everything that went on, and it’s not how we run our country. “
Oh it’s really not disposed of that easily. Large tracts of radioactive lands, long histories of death and illness destroy your assertion that there are x number deaths from coal and X number deaths from gas etc. but look at how safe nuclear energy is! You compared coal pollution to nuclear pollution. But London recovered from streets blackened with coal but vast areas of Russia are permanently (for all intents and purposes - that’ according to experts who point out you’d have to remove the soil from the ground and bury it....where?) uninhabitable and when forest fires or droughts put the radiation back into the air - new areas are again contaminated. Oh I know we are not Russia but there are SOME similarities. Russia didn’t inform it’s people when they were standing outdoors within easy view of the smoke stack next to the crater sending radiation their way - it wanted to keep them calm so they opened up the new Ferris wheel and let them ride it! High into the radioactive air! There’s the attitude in Japan, Russia, and on this board that presupposes that normal people are simply incompetent and incapable of understanding information so the information is not given to them. Russia denies it’s grim history and supporters embrace their denial with vigor. At the end of the video series, that Documentary (Battle For Chernobyl) recounts how the international nuclear body listened to the bare facts as presented, acted stunned, revised the numbers drastically downward. Well I guess that was to be expected in hindsight - they were pro nuclear power at all costs. The panel rejected the bare facts and reduced the radiation reported to 1/10th the original etc. This is the history of the vigorous supporters of nuclear power - revise the numbers downward, ridicule ‘outsiders’ as too ignorant to understand, don’t tell them because they just won’t ‘get it’. Call them emotional or irrational etc. That impetus to mock, deride and ignore - anyone who points out to natural human fallibility must be discredited.
Human errors lead to explosions and cave ins when speaking of coal. When speaking of human error in relation to nuclear energy, then it can lead to portions of land being permanently uninhabitable - Chernobyl is still a ghost town, even though they did try to clean it, and the original site of devastating death and injury - if the victim’s own words are to be believed. There are, based on what happened to the health of the liquidators (people who cleanup up the Chernobyl area) in Russia, no plans to continue cleaning efforts on the vast expanses of unlivable land in Russia.
It’s quite disturbing to hear those interviewed on the Youtube series assert that no human deserves to go through what they went through - and then hear nuclear power supporters suggest it never happened. Yes the Soviets denied all but a few casualties and those who need to cheerlead nuclear power in spite of the facts will grasp at those little numbers very appreciatively.
The efforts of heroic Japanese and support from foreign nations is making it less likely that large portions of Japan will become permanently unlivable - but the battle isn’t won yet. I am getting the feeling that the perilous battle they have been fighting will also be discarded by supporters - never happened, all is well, everything under control, never was in danger. etc. I hope for the best possible outcome for them - no human should experience the problems they are having with radiation.
I worked with radioactive cesium in college - the ‘public safety officer’ pointlessly exposed me to radiation when he could of just told me the process instead of opening the can and lifting out the source with a ten foot pole. I made no complaint at the time - I understood that I was X feet away from a source giving off X radiation for X minutes. He could have spared me that dose but he didn’t. Oh and then he didn’t mean to drop it (it was hard to hold with that grasping pole) and as it rolled closer to us in the lab, we crowded into the corner of the room - where there was no exit. But the man was trying to perform his job ‘perfectly’ so he didn’t return the source to the lead canister for awhile as he crept closer and closer to the source as he tried to knock the dust off of it (it picked up some big dust bunnies when it rolled). And then, when he thought I wasn’t looking, he dusted it off with his BARE HAND. He has no idea what dose he received but he had to know if he was ‘trained’ and received a permit etc. that required him to handle it with a 10 foot pole that he should not touch it with his hand. But if asked about it - I’m sure he’d say it never happened and my eye witness account could be discounted as ‘ignorance’ or ‘exaggerated fear’ etc.
People are human, designs are made by humans, decisions - by humans, emergency responses - human again. Unless you talk to a vigorously pro nuke person who INSISTS that no one has EVER been harmed by it, we have the answers now and we are different blah blah blah. What I hear is - we still won’t acknowledge lessons learned and we will function with 100% precision - even in an earthquake with the power out following a tsunami and what’s more - we won’t tell the public what is really going on (emergencies etc.) because they are outsiders and therefore we don’t trust them to think etc. Coal energy’s history is laden with error and yet we’ve never faced the potential for disaster that Russia did with nuclear energy production - as the minutes counted down and they raced to avoid contaminating the entire water table of Russia and Europe with radioactivity. Oh and that part of the video where they said ‘half of Europe would become unlivable’ had they not been able to avert a second explosion. Oh what do they know - they were just nuclear physicists who were there handling the crisis at the time.
Oh yes, the NEA has indeed discredited themselves completely by endorsing the Soviet need to falsely portray the number of actual deaths and reducing the levels of radiation exposure to 1/10 of what was reported. Once it becomes part of the NEA - why then EVERYONE can claim it. There’s video of a helicopter pilot flying right into the direct path of lethal radiation - he becomes disoriented and the copter crashes upside down into the reactor with 4 people on board - yeah the Russians denied that those four were casualties of chernobyl too. Nothing to see here...move along...unless you watch the Nova Series and find out that the ‘sarcophagus’ that they built over the reactor is...ah...unstable and if it collapses...will send a dense plume of radioactivity over them again.
Thousands died, thousands more suffered, but they’ve got the number down to what...31? As long as governments and supporters need to distort reality THAT MUCH to justify their desires - something is REALLY wrong with nuclear power.
Courts are human, and they too they can't sentence someone because they might make a mistake also, right?!
What a bunch of ignorant relativistic gibberish.... Humans with a mind make decisions and realize that even waking up and driving to work poses a risk = (Magnitude x probability). They make decisions based on costs and benefits, where risks are considered. They weigh the alternatives and then make a pragmatic decision, something some people can't do anymore.
“Apparently you decline to acknowledge the catastrophic effects of Chernobyl in the documentary I linked to.
What is the credibility of this documentary? In a 20 year retrospective (International study) they talk about 32 - 50 dead from the immediate high level exposure and a “marginal” (As in statistically noticeable and with a probable correlation but not significant) increase in some diseases for those exposed after the incident around the reactor. BTW- Today Chernobyl is a sort of natural habitat with wild life all over the place. Yes, you can even take a tour: http://tourkiev.com/chernobyltour/
Seriously, I can't watch the video at work. What are they up to now? It was “HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS WILL DIE!” Is it now “MILLIONS HAVE DIED?” 32-50 vs. millions, just a slight variance.
“Actually I was specific about nuclear pollution “ Pollution by definition as used in the eco vernacular is the consequence of any human activity. To the eco crowd the goal is minimization of any human impact of their green tree goddess, not the safety and well being of humans.
“And the links of how Russian’s treat nuclear wastes “
That highly dangerous and scary waste comes from where? Buddy, what do you think they mine in places like Uranium City Canada? Nuclear power is straight from mother earth herself. Go green, go nuclear! There, I used the word “green,” feel better about it now? If I took all the evil waste and ground it up and simply sprinkled it all over the nation, dilution itself would take care of the issue. The so called waste and other fissile material is largely (like 99.9%) from the earth in the first place! Simply more concentrated.
“long histories of death and illness destroy your assertion that there are x number deaths from coal and X number deaths from gas etc. but look at how safe nuclear energy is! “ Very safe, and unlike you, he can back his claim with real numbers, not imaginary ones.
” being permanently uninhabitable “ What planet do you live on? Hell, Trinity test site where they lit a nuke would be safe to live at were in not still an active range. It's open twice a year to visit BTW: http://www.nmts.org/rides/trinitySite.htm (I know, it's a conspiracy and it's actually really really dangerous....... but they don't want us to know! They revised the numbers downward) In all your “open mindedness” if you were interested, they do the tours twice a year, very nice: http://nuclearmuseum.org/
“There’s the attitude in Japan, Russia, and on this board that presupposes that normal people are simply incompetent and incapable of understanding information so the information is not given to them.” Let me ask you this, doesn't the hysteria in our media, the ignorant ideas surrounding nuclear power, weapons etc sort of prove they are right? If they gave tours of the power plant near where I live (Comanche Peak) someone like you might chain himself to a cooling tower.
“It’s quite disturbing to hear those interviewed on the Youtube series assert that no human deserves to go through what they went through - “ Rational people look for correlations, risks and find pragmatic solutions to problems affecting them. I hope my children don't die from a vaccine, the probability that something could happen and that this includes death is real. Does that mean I should not vaccinate them? After all, I hope they never have to go through what some of those people suffer and die from when they do react to these vaccines in various ways.
You make no sense....... Why don't you go talk about your “feelings” to a grief counselor, after all you appear to be stricken hard by those pictures from Japan and Chernobyl video's that are so scientific and factual.
Your point seems to be that if you handle radioactivity irresponsibly like the soviets did many people will die.
You can make the same point regarding just about any human activities - burning coal, wood, oil, driving cars, dams, overeating, etc, etc.
My point is you handle any new technology with the appropriate level of responsibility and you weigh the costs and benefits and if the benefits outweigh the cost you do it. You’ll make mistakes along the way and learn from them.
My opinion regarding nuclear energy is that the benefits outweigh the costs - definitely in terms of life and also economically. There is a strong political agenda against nuclear - which is the same that’s against coal, oil, hydro and just about any other form of energy that actually works (including solar and wind - now that they’re actually getting to the threshold of being feasible).