How Did this Happen? Why Same-Sex Marriage Makes Sense to So Many

Christian Post ^ | 03/05./2011 | R. Albert Mohler Jr.

[Albion Wilde]

It's been rather clear to me that your "contributions" to this thread have been to condemn Christians rather than to think critically about the problem of marriage law and society as regards homosexuals' claims that marriage is a civil right.

Your axe to grind with Christianity is about as helpful as the continued whining of black people about the oppressive behavior of the small minority of whites at any time in human history who actually had the capital to own blacks and/or mistreat them physically, ignoring the large numbers of whites who fought for abolition and who died in great numbers in our Civil War to establish their rights as humans, as well as those who have fought diligently for their integration into mainstream society ever since.

It is typical of liberals to find one flaw or imperfection and then magnify it to encompass all practitioners of conservatism or Christianity. Don't be a pinhead in this way. It's patently obvious.

No one is attacking you personally -- we are calling out your faulty arguments and expectations of human perfection among the religionists you scorn, as if one or two unknown posters on FR are the elected representatives of all Christians' attitudes or behaviors. That dog won't hunt.

[scripter]

Also, gay people have been talking, writing, and studying their origins, and all evidence, scientific and experiential, shows that a very high percentage of gays did not choose their orientation. They just were that way.

For the most part it's true that gays did not choose their orientation. I say for the most part because some admit to choosing the gay life. Checkout Queer By Choice.

On the other than, there is still no scientific evidence supporting the born that way theory and what's interesting is scientists, even some scientists who are also gay, do not think they will ever find any evidence some are born with same-sex attraction. The reason they admit this is because the evidence supports the environment in which we're raised is the most important factor.

Not only that, but ex-gays and former homosexuals exist. Some ex-gays were very well known in the gay community before they walked away from the gay life.

So it's all very interesting. Still, to say They just were that way is incorrect. There is no evidence supporting that statement, there is evidence supporting environment as the major factor, and ex-gays exist.

[Yaelle]

I really appreciate your post.

You being born an alcoholic and not acting on it (much) is exactly what I was trying to get at. People who are similar to the opposite sex in their play as children are of course innocent children of G-d. They are not gay or straight. They are children. But as they approach puberty, they will perhaps find themselves attracted to the same sex, just as you found yourself attracted to the opposite sex.

AT THIS POINT Christians or anyone who cares might want to consider coming up with alternative ways to live rather than joining the school’s gay club, or affiliating themselves with the gay lifestyle.

I completely agree that missionaries into Boystowns will have a rough time converting the set-in-their ways Proud Gays. Definitely. But it still beats condemnation, no?

Young homosexuals, especially those who have not yet had sex, need an alternative. There isn’t one.

And yes, there is definitely evidence, as I already said, that the majority of people who are attracted to their own sex JUST ARE that way. You did not WILL yourself to be attracted at 12 to the opposite sex - remember back then? You did not look at Lucy and Steve and make a conscious decision as to which one really floated your boat. One seemed to jump into your mind! Be honest. People do not CHOOSE their orientation at that age for SURE.

And those are the people I am talking about. The innocent kids. Not a Lindsay Lohan who tired of men for a while.

Sexual orientation mostly comes from prenatal sexual/genital/brain development. There are exceptions. Some people are molested and it “imprints.” But not most molestation victims! I have spent much time with SNAP, and most of those adult men who had once been abused by people of authority are STRAIGHT, hetero. They are messed up, but they did not turn gay.

And as for ex-gays, most of them really, really want to be straight and they MAKE it happen. Not saying prayer cannot help, but the person PUSHES himself or herself to live that life. it’s a voluntary self-control, against his orientation. Which is great when it works.

[Yaelle]

It's been rather clear to me that your "contributions" to this thread have been to condemn Christians rather than to think critically about the problem of marriage law and society as regards homosexuals' claims that marriage is a civil right.

Oh my gosh, how wrong could you be? I love Christians and your religion, for you. I have deep, deep respect for Christianity. I am STUNNED that you accuse me of condemning it. Horrified, as well.

Maybe I am not expressing myself well, so I will herewith apologize for anything I've said on this thread or others that would make anyone think I didn't have Christians and Christianity in the highest regard. May G-d bless all of you. This misunderstanding could only come from my poor ability to express my point. I hang my head in deepest apology, seriously.

I will try to sum up my point about homosexuality one last time:

Children who behave similar to the opposite gender do this without knowing they are doing anything. They come out the chute that way. They really do. They are as beautiful as all children. They are not coerced by liberals to be the way they are. They are raised in basically the same environment as their siblings who are more gender-typical. And some of these children, when their sexual hormones come on at puberty, find themselves attracted to their same sex, rather than the opposite one. This is called homosexuality, and it is not a choice for these kids. They are STILL, even with this orientation, children of G-d as are kids with Down Syndrome or ANY KIDS.

If you guys cannot believe the paragraph above, then we have nothing more to say to each other.

If you stipulate to the existence of these kids, then my point was that people should not be so quick to condemn them. PERIOD. That is my whole point.

[trisham]

Well said.

[trisham]

Thank you for a very thoughtful post.

[little jeremiah]

If you want freedom from all religious principles, you really should find a nice atheist country like the PRC or North Korea.

[little jeremiah]

Homosexuals only want to change when they realize that their condition is (a) not intrinsic, and they can change and (b) that the “gay” life is one of incredible misery.

Being told the lie that they are born “gay” and cannot change is cruelty of the worst sort, and being told the lie that their practices are healthy and natural is more cruelty.

[BuckeyeTexan]

And how do you determine who to witness to? Surely you don’t witness to everyone, including those you meet in church each Sunday and the preacher?

I listen to the guidance of the Holy Spirit and go where I am called. I absolutely have been called to witness to someone I know from church, and yes, that has included my pastor once or twice.

[scripter]

Children who behave similar to the opposite gender do this without knowing they are doing anything. They come out the chute that way. They really do.

Saying something doesn't make it true. And all the scientific evidence disagrees with you.

If you guys cannot believe the paragraph above, then we have nothing more to say to each other.

It's too bad you've closed your mind to all the available evidence.

[Sans-Culotte]

Really? Where is that in the Bible?...Christ said that lustful desire of the heart is the same as actually sinning. Thinking about sinning is not sinning. That's called temptation.

Obviously that was what I was referring to. I was not suggesting that "contemplating the idea of sin, and whether it exists, etc" was sinning. I mean that Jesus meant that if you commit "thought sin", you have as good as sinned. I think you are splitting hairs over this. So, basically, if one lusts after a woman; yes that is sin. I never said Christ sinned. Christ was incapable of sin.

I would like to see you differentiate between "temptation" and "adultery (or any other sin) in one's heart".

[Antoninus]

Why am I not surprised? I never liked this guy's mumbling, namby-pamby one-minute opinion blobs on Salem Radio.

Our Lord is separating the sheep from the goats.

Al Mohler--we known which side you're on.

[Antoninus]

C) probably every person condemning gays, if he remembered back in his own sexual experience, would recall a time when he too followed his sexual appetites into some kind of behavior he would not be proud of. And that behavior may well appear disgusting to some.

You have identified the difference. Those who have engaged in sex acts that they are not proud of, regret, and no longer engage in--that's one thing. But to engage in a particular sex act, proclaim it to be part of your very being, build a whole culture around it, and then insist that the larger society accept you and your disgusting sex act as normal or even better than normal--that is simply intolerable.

We will not be brainwashed by this nonsense. Putting a penis inside an anus is never normal, never natural, never good or virtuous. It is always vile, perverse degrading and filthy.

[Antoninus]

As a Christian, when one sees somebody hurting themselves and others, one might want to point out that what they’re doing is hurting themselves and others. That strikes me as the “loving” thing to do.

You nailed it. Enabling homosexual behavior isn't about love and compassion. It's about taking the path of least resistance. It's a lot easier to say, "I love you, do whatever you want" than to say, "Because I love you, I must tell you that what you are doing is wrong." The latter course is so much harder, but if more people had the courage to do it, the homosexual movement wouldn't have nearly the power it does. It thrives on emotional blackmail. It thrives because we have become a weak people who are afraid to tell the truth.

[Antoninus]

if Christians insist in hateful condemnation, something Jesus didn’t do to the harlots, then Boystown is a better choice for homosexuals. PROVIDE A BETTER WAY with love and outstretched arms first.

Christ was always willing to forgive the repentant. "Go and sin no more." The harlots were repentant harlots. The tax collectors left their money tables to become apostles.

Meanwhile, in our day, the homosexual not only refuses to denounce his sin, he makes it the core of his being and insists that all men accept it. The only people who did anything like that in the time of Our Lord were the Pharisees and we know He never hesitated to call them out in the harshest terms for it.

[Antoninus]

Being told the lie that they are born “gay” and cannot change is cruelty of the worst sort, and being told the lie that their practices are healthy and natural is more cruelty.

Correct. In fact, I honestly believe that such "advice" comes straight from the mouth of satan, who always says to the sinner--"This is who you are. You can not change."

[Ransomed]

“Why does same-sex marriage make sense to so many people?”

Because they have been conditioned to think that marriage is whatever the state says it is, that marriage is just another lousy gubberment contract that can be broken and resumed as long as the gov’t approves and that a piece of paper from the gov’t determines if one is married or not, and to who. Just like they have been conditioned to think that a wefare check is charity, or that the state is the best source of education. In all those cases gubberment involvement usurpes the role of faith in human affairs.

Freegards

[BuckeyeTexan]

I would like to see you differentiate between "temptation" and "adultery (or any other sin) in one's heart."

James 1:14-15 (NIV) but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

1 Corinthians 10:13 (NIV) No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

[Sans-Culotte]

One of the Commandments is "thou shalt not covet". That IMO is a "thought sin". If you think to yourself "I wish I had my neighbor's car, or his house (or anything else that is his)", you have sinned. I don't think one has to act on the thoughts and actually steal the neighbor's stuff (that would be the sin of stealing) to be a sinner.

It is obvious (to me, anyway) that when Jesus made the pronouncement about "lusting in one's heart" in Matthew 5, and about "anger against a brother"; He was referring to the fact that people consider themselves sinless when they are fact sinners in thought if not in deed. The Pharisees considered themselves to be sinless because they did not literally of physically commit sins. But, Jesus referred to such people as "whitewashed sepulchers" because while they appeared to be outwardly clean; inside was rot and decay. He made these pronouncements as a way of showing people that no matter how hard they tried; they would still be captive to sin.

It is obvious that you do not subscribe that idea, and you (apparently) believe that unless a sin is actively committed physically; it is not a sin. At least that is what I think you are saying.

[BuckeyeTexan]

That is NOT what I said.