Posted on 02/11/2011 8:45:39 PM PST by LeoWindhorse
Would you support a car tag featuring Confederate General Nathan Bedford Forrest?
No, we can’t talk about Fort Pillow. That was a long time ago anyway it was just a misunderstanding.../s
if you read the many accounts of what actually happened at Fort Pillow , the Yankees had many barrels of booze within the fort and after they were under siege by NBF men the booze was broken out and unwisely distributed by the fort commanders in the hopes that the men would be fortified and would stand and fight . Some wished to surrender and did run up a white flag , and the Rebs responded by advancing with a white flag to parley a truce/surrender , whereupon they were opened fire upon my the boozed up men with the fort that didn’t want to surrender , yet whom were now shooting at the Rebs from underneath their own white flag . This infuriated the Rebs and a overrun ensued in which many Yanks were killed , and also no small number of Rebs . Finally survivors were taken as prisoners after things calmed down . How is that an intentional massacre of ‘innocent soldiers’ ? They and their CO showed very poor judgment and very poor discipline . Had they surrendered with honor they would have been treated honorably . Blame the booze , blame the stupid Yankee fort CO , but don’t blame NBF . Post war Congressional hearings were stacked with agenda oriented Yankees that wanted to extract their own pounds of flesh . He was not convicted of anything .
Of all the accounts of the Fort Pillow Massacre, that is the most, uhm creative. Do you have a reference for it?
>> Sherman was not terroristic? His troops were not sadistic and were under tight control at all times? <<
You sound like one of those Code Pink whiners. Sherman was fighting a war, and his aims were military: the same tactics we used in WWII: Destory the factories/farms, to weaken the military.
Forrest founded the KKK, which had no military objective, only terrorism.
Equating Sherman and Forrest is like equating Churchill and bin Laden.
Forrest founded the KKK, which had no military objective, only terrorism.
Equating Sherman and Forrest is like equating Churchill and bin Laden.
Are you going to tell me that purposely targeting civilians had military objectives?? Sherman makes Forrest look like Mr. Rogers.
>> Sherman makes Forrest look like Mr. Rogers. <<
Really? How many people did Sherman lynch?
>> Are you going to tell me that purposely targeting civilians had military objectives?? <<
Absolutely. The same way targeting Dresden did. The civilians were part of the home front. Farms, factories, railroads and roadways are all legitimate targets. Atlantans were evacuated, not lynched.
>> Sherman makes Forrest look like Mr. Rogers. <<
Really? How many people did Sherman lynch?
>> Are you going to tell me that purposely targeting civilians had military objectives?? <<
Absolutely. The same way targeting Dresden did. The civilians were part of the home front. Farms, factories, railroads and roadways are all legitimate targets. Atlantans were evacuated, not lynched.
63% yes, 37% no.
NBF BUMP.
Maybe you should learn some real history.
Here:
HDQRS. MILITARY DIVISION OF THE MISSISSIPPI In the Field, February 24, 1865.
Lieut. Gen. WADE HAMPTON,
Commanding Cavalry Forces, C.S. Army:
GENERAL: It is officially reported to me that our foraging parties are murdered after capture and labeled "Death to all foragers." One instance of a lieutenant and seven men near Chesterfield, and another of twenty "near a ravine 80 rods from the main road" about three miles from Feasterville. I have ordered a similar number of prisoners in our hands to be disposed of in like manner. I hold about 1,000 prisoners captured in various ways, and can stand it as long as you; but I hardly think these murders are committed with your knowledge, and would suggest that you give notice to the people at large that every life taken by them simply results in the death of one of your Confederates. Of course you cannot question my right to "forage on the country". It is a war right as old as history. The manner of exercising it varies with circumstances, and if the civil authorities will supply my requisitions I will forbid all foraging, but I find no civil authorities who can respond to calls for forage or provisions, therefore must collect direct of the people. I have no doubt this is the occasion of much misbehavior on the part of our men, but I cannot permit an enemy to judge or punish with wholesale murder. Personally I regret the bitter feeling engendered by this war, but they were to be expected, and I simply allege that those who struck the first blow and made war inevitable ought not, in fairness, to reproach us for the natural consequences. I merely assert our war right to forage and my resolve to protect my foragers to the extent of life for life. I am, with respect, your obedient servant.
W.T. Sherman,
Major-General, U.S. Army.
------------------------------------------
HEADQUARTERS,
In the Field, Feb. 27, 1865.
Maj. Gen. W.T. Sherman, U.S. Army:
GENERAL: Your communication of the 24th instant reached me today. In it you state that it has been officially reported that your foraging parties are "murdered" after capture. You go on to say that you have "ordered a similar number of prisoners in our hands to be disposed of in like manner", that is to say, you have ordered a number of Confederate soldiers to be "murdered." You characterize your order in proper terms, for the public voice, even in your own country, where it seldom dares to express itself in vindication of truth, honor, or justice, will surely agree with you in pronouncing you guilty of murder if you order it carried out. Before dismissing this portion of your letter, I beg to assure you that for every soldier of mine "murdered" by you, I shall have executed at once two of yours, giving in all cases preference to any officers who may be in your hands.
In reference to the statement you make regarding the death of your foragers, I have only to say that I know nothing of it; that no orders given by me authorize the killing of prisoners after capture, and that I do not believe my men killed any of yours, except under circumstances in which it was perfectly legitimate and proper that they should kill them. It is a part of the system of the thieves of whom you designate as your foragers to fire the dwellings of those citizens whom they have robbed. To check this inhuman system, which is justly execrated by every civilized nation, I have directed my men to shoot down all of your men who are caught burning houses. This order shall remain in force so long as you disgrace the profession of arms by allowing your men to destroy private dwellings. You say that I cannot, of course, question your right to forage on the country - "It is a right as old as history." I do not sir, question this right. But there is a right older, even, than this, and one more inalienable - the right that every man has to defend his home and to protect those who are dependent on him; and from my heart I wish that every old man and boy in my country who can fire a gun would shoot down, as he would a wild beast, the men who are desolating their land, burning their homes, and insulting their women.
You are particular in defining and claiming "war rights." May I ask if you enumerate among these the rights to fire upon a defenseless city without notice; to burn that city to the ground after it had been surrendered by the inhabitants who claimed, thou in vain, that protection which is always accorded in civilized warfare to non-combatants; to fire the dwelling houses of citizens about robbing them; and to perpetrate even darker crimes than these - crimes too black to be mentioned?
You have permitted, if you have not ordered, the commission of those offenses against humanity and the rules of war; you fired into the city of Columbia without a word of warning; after its surrender by the mayor, who demanded protection to private property, you laid the whole city in ashes, leaving amidst its ruins thousands of old men and helpless women and children, who are likely to perish of starvation and exposure. Your line of march can be traced to the lurid light of burning houses, and in more than one household there is now an agony far more bitter than that of death. The Indian scalped his victim regardless of age or sex, but with all his barbarity he always respected the persons of his female captives. Your soldiers, more savage than Indian, insult those whose natural protectors are absent.
In conclusion, I have only to request that whenever you have any of my men "murdered" or "disposed of," for the terms appear to be synonymous with you, you will let me hear of it, that I may know what action to take in the matter. In the meantime, I shall hold fifty-six of your men as hostages for those whom you have ordered to be executed.
I am, yours, &c.,
WADE HAMPTON
My dear brother: I have not written to you for so long that I suppose you think I have dropped the correspondence. For six weeks I was marching along the road from Corinth to Memphis, mending roads, building bridges, and all sorts of work. At last I got here and found the city contributing gold' arms, powder, salt and everything the enemy wanted. It was a smart trick on their part thus to give up Memphis that the desire of gain to our Northern merchants should supply them with the things needed in war.
I stopped this at once and declared gold, silver, treasury notes and salt as much contraband of war, as powder. I have one man under sentence of death for smuggling arms across the lines, and hope Mr. Lincoln will approve it. But the mercenary spirit of our people is too much and my orders are reversed and I am ordered to encourage the trade in cotton, and all orders prohibiting gold, silver and notes to be paid for it are annulled by orders from Washington. Grant promptly ratified my order, and all military men here saw at once that gold spent for cotton went to the purchase of arms and munitions of war. But what are the lives of our soldiers to the profits of the merchants?
After a whole year of bungling, the country has at last discovered that we want more men. All knew it last fall as well as now; but it was not popular. Now 1,300,000 men are required when 700,000 was deemed absurd before. It will take time to work up these raw recruits and they will reach us in October, when we should be in Jackson, Meridian and Vicksburg. Still, I must not growl. I have purposely put back, and have no right to criticize, save that I am glad the papers have at last found out we are at war and have a formidable enemy to combat.
Of course I approve the confiscation act, and would be willing to revolutionize the government so as to amend that article of the Constitution which forbids the forfeiture of land to the heirs. My full belief is, we must colonize the country de novo, beginning with Kentucky and Tennessee, and should remove 4,000,000 of our people at once south of the Ohio River, taking the farms and plantations of the Rebels. I deplore the war as much as ever, but if the thing has to be done, let the means be adequate.
Don't expect to overrun such a country or subdue such a people in one, two or five years. It is the task of half a century. Although our army is thus far South it cannot stir from our garrisons. Our men are killed and captured within sight of our lines.
I have two divisions here—mine and Hurlbut's— about 13,000 men; I am building a strong fort, and think this is to be one of the depots and bases of operations for future movements.
The loss of Halleck is almost fatal; we have no one to replace him. Instead of having one head we have live or six, all independent of each other.
I expect our enemy will mass their troops and fall upon our detachments before new reinforcements come. I cannot learn that there are any large bodies of men near us here.
There are detachments at Holly Springs and Senatobia, the present terminal of the railroads from the South, and all the people of the country are armed as guerrillas. Curtis is at Helena, eighty miles south, and Grant at Corinth. Bragg's Army from Tripoli has moved to Chattanooga and proposes to march on to Nashville, Lexington and Cincinnati. They will have about 75,000 men. Buell is near Huntsville with about 30,000, and I suppose detachments of the new levies can be put in Kentucky from Ohio and Indiana in time.
The weather is very hot and Bragg can't move his forces very fast; but I fear he will give trouble. My own opinion is we ought not to venture too much into the interior until the river is safely in our possession, when we could land at any point and strike inland. To attempt to hold all the South would demand an army too large even to think of.
We must colonize and settle as we go South, for in Missouri there is as much strife as ever.
Enemies must be killed or transported to some other country.
Your affectionate brother,
W. T. SHERMAN
------------------------------------------
Camden, S. C., Feb 26, 1865.
My dear wife--I have no time for particulars. We have had a glorious time in this State. Unrestricted license to burn and plunder was the order of the day. The chivalry have been stripped of most of their valuables. Gold watches, silver pitchers, cups, spoons, forks, &c., are as common in camp as blackberries.
The terms of plunder are as follows: Each company is required to exhibit the results of its operations at any given place--one-fifth and first choice falls to the share of the commander-in-chief and staff; one-fifth to the corps commanders and staff; one-fifth to field officers of regiments, and two-fifths to the company.
Officers are not allowed to join these expeditions without disguising themselves as privates. One of our corps commanders borrowed a suit of rough clothes from one of my men, and was successful in this place. He got a large quantity of silver (among other things an old-time milk pitcher) and a very fine gold watch from a Mrs DeSaussure, at this place. DeSaussure was one of the F. F. V.s of South Carolina, and was made to fork over liberally.. Officers over the rank of Captain are not made to put their plunder in the estimate for general distribution. This is very unfair, and for that reason, in order to protect themselves, subordinate officers and privates keep back every thing that they can carry about their persons, such as rings, earrings, breast pins, &c., of which, if I ever get home, I have about a quart. I am not joking--I have at least a quart of jewelry for you and all the girls, and some No. 1 diamond rings and pins among them. General Sherman has silver and gold enough to start a bank. His share in gold watches alone at Columbia was two hundred and seventy-five. But I said I could not go into particulars. All the general officers and many besides had valuables of every description, down to embroidered ladies' pocket handkerchiefs. I have my share of them, too. We took gold and silver enough from the damned rebels to have redeemed their infernal currency twice over. This, (the currency), whenever we came across it, we burned, as we considered it utterly worthless.
I wish all the jewelry this army has could be carried to the "Old Bay State". It would deck her out in glorious style; but, alas! it will be scattered all over the North and Middle States. The damned niggers, as a general rule, prefer to stay at home, particularly after they found out that we only wanted the able-bodied men, (and to tell the truth, the youngest and best-looking women). Sometimes we took off whole families and plantations of niggers, by way of repaying secessionists. But the useless part of them we soon manage to lose; [one very effective was to "shoot at their bobbing heads as they swam rivers" after the army units crossed over], sometimes in crossing rivers, sometimes in other ways. I shall write to you again from Wilmington, Goldsboro', or some other place in North Carolina. The order to march has arrived, and I must close hurriedly. Love to grandmother and aunt Charlotte. Take care of yourself and children. Don't show this letter out of the family.
Your affectionate husband, Thomas J Myers, Lieut., P.S. I will send this by the first flag of truce to be mailed, unless I have an opportunity of sending it at Hilton Head. Tell Sallie I am saving a pearl bracelet and ear-rings for her; but Lambert got the necklace and breast pin of the same set. I am trying to trade him out of them. These were taken from the Misses Jamison, daughters of the President of the South Carolina Secession Convention. We found these on our trip through Georgia.
“Your men murdered my men, I’ll murder yours.”
“You murder mine, I’ll murder two of yours.”
I’ll point out
1. Sherman’s making threats to another general; those threats were not carried out.
2. Whereas Sherman was making a threat of tit-for-tat, your beloved confederate general was responding with 2-for-1 threats.
Maybe you should read your own posts.
Second, Sherman Invaded another Country.
Third, The union thug machine was just to damn busy forcing the colored back down south. I mean, we all know how diversified New England is..
I also find it interesting that you "collective" Union blue types always focus on pointing out Confederate misgivings. Why don't you clear the air about Grant and dishonest Abe? For crying out loud, Grant was expelling Jews. And ol' disHonest was busy ( like most socialist libtards ) using Blacks as tools.
So was Sherman.
Second, Sherman Invaded another Country.
As far as the rest of the country and the rest of the world were concerned Georgia was still a part of the US.
Third, (a bunch of disjointed nonsense)
YAWN, so what?
And I don't really care if you invade or not, but i truly hope you do. And I don't care if you consider us as gone, seceded, independent, etc..
Why?
yes sir , this is what my great Uncle , who was physically present at that fight , told his sons and nephews, to include my granddad, who told their sons and nephews and cousins , who told their sons ,which includes me . This is known as oral history . Not the kind that some partisan researchers create to fulfill a certain literally goal years after the facts . About the Congressional findings , that is a matter of open record I believe . If you do wish to read a comprehensive book about General Forrest’s life & times , read the one by Wyeth . It’s the best
I see. I hope you don’t mind that I doubt it’s accuracy.
The problem is that it is (at least) a third hand anecdotal account. And it varies substantially from the official record.
I don’t doubt that you believe it to be true. It could be. I’ll likely never know because I cannot find independent verification. Verbal accounts can be problematic. They’re better when they are a group account (several people claiming the same story), and you are correct that an accounting is preferable in the absence of partisanship.
Ideally if the accounts of both armies jibe then I’m sure you’ll agree that it likely isn’t “partisan”. That is the case of the official congressional investigation - which incidentally jibed with Sherman’s internal investigation. Those investigations resulted in no charges being advanced against Forrest.
SCV needs a much better spokesman
http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/15/video-proposed-special-plate-an-honor-or-an-insult/
Thanks for posting that link. I tend to agree - he didn’t do himself or the SCV any favors in his presentation. Of course what’s his name the host had a hard time hiding his bias /s
Not that I think the black guy is doing anyone any favors either. His sensationalistic reporting of the more controversial aspects of Forrest’s life distort the past and border on revisionism - a charge he makes of the SCV spokesman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9WphKnW2O0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoxZdaUCIXM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxGvtPsKKks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp3pRiw9aQk
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