Posted on 12/29/2010 10:28:37 AM PST by abu afak
One of the staples of television news over the Christmas holiday is coverage of celebrations in the Holy Land, providing a familiar and comforting nod to the ancient roots of Western civilization.
Even in our increasingly secular society, images of Christians worshipping in Nazareth and Bethlehem provide welcome confirmation that we have a long and substantial history - even if we're fuzzy on the details. It all looks so traditional and Christmassy.
Unfortunately this comforting image depends to a large extent on a dwindling number of embattled Christian communities. We are, in fact, witnessing the twilight of Christianity across much of the Middle East.
Not so long ago Bethlehem was a majority Christian town - about 80 per cent - and now is down to less than a third. Nazareth, too, has seen its Christian population almost halved in recent decades, and in Jerusalem itself the Christian community has fallen from a slight majority 80 years ago to below two per cent today.
Christians are leaving the West Bank, in particular, to escape the instability and a long-standing Muslim boycott of Christian businesses that has ravaged the community's economic foundations.
Thankfully this modern-day exodus is mostly peaceful, which puts it in marked contrast to much of the history of Christian depopulation in the Middle East.
This is history the West has largely forgotten and ignored. Your average European or North American will certainly be more familiar with the story of the Palestinians and the much-publicized grievances of the Arab world in general.
Yet we're not talking ancient history here. [........] http://www.calgaryherald.com/life/Dwindling+persecuted+Christians+Holy+Land+most+Unreported+story/4030136/story.html
Postmill believes Christian influence is going to improve society more and more until such a point we will have a thousand years of Christian theocratic rule over this world, a veritable utopia. A Christian one world government if you please.
Except all that you posted is a gross mischaracterization of Post Millennial thought. It only shows the weakness of your own argument when ALL you can do is lie about a competing view.
The post-mills with their polyanna utopia consider those of us who see the Bible quite differently, that things are going to get worse and worse in this world (Premillennialist), are their worst enemies.
So tell me, what age and culture would you prefer to be living in? The Pre-industrial age where the average lifespan was in the 40s? The endless wars of the 1800s, early 1900s in the West where we had millions dying from the Spanish Flu? Then World War I? Or do you prefer the Great Depression, the Rape of Nanking, Stalin's purges, Hitler's Holocaust, Cambodian killing fields, the endless plagues and famines in Africa. Tell me, in the day where we finally have a generation of people who do not know war, our greatest health threat is obesity, and much of the population is unacquainted with even a single day's work yet lives in peace and prosperity, which days do you believe were man's zenith when he could achieve nothing more and all the days that remain are nothing but Darkness?
You are an ignorant fool if you think that the world's best days are long behind. The Far East is exploding with new converts adding countless numbers to the roll call in Heaven and all you do is myopically look at the decadent West and moan "Woe is me". You hate God when He says "I am not mocked whatever a man sows that is what he will reap" and then actually follows through with that promise by allowing the West to commit suicide. Did you not know that even in the earliest days God said that a nation's sinfulness would cause the land to vomit them out? Yet when it happens to the West you automatically think the whole earth is seconds away from the Apocalypse? Who is being silly and irrational here?
They are on these threads deceiving everybody they can with their silly view.
I'm neither Premill or Postmill and while I believe the Postmill's have some minor defects in their eschatology, when it comes down to plain silliness and outright lunacy no one holds a candle to Premillennial Dispensationalists. Over the last few weeks I have only scratched the surface in revealing the insane and ludicrous claims made by what can only be called Dysfunctionalists.
At least Post Mills aren't constantly date-setting, writing insipid Left Behind fiction, changing the covers of old rehashed books unchanged except for the names of leaders, countries and weapons upgrades, profiteering off of the biblically illiterate in endless Prophecy Conferences, bombarding the airwaves with silliness that best belongs to the Art Bell crowd, rewriting the Bible, and telling us that Christ is going to be making animal blood Sacrifices to Himself in a building pock-marked by the many pre-tribulation satellites that are plowing into the side of the "New Jerusalem" wart that can be seen unaided by optics from the planet Jupiter.
It is your crowd that fantasizes about rounding up all of the world's Jews so that 2/3rds of them can be conveniently slaughtered by an aging and relatively toothless Russia/Soviet Union/Russia/Iran/North Korea/Iraq/Egypt/Iran/Russia/China/whoever is in rotation this week to be the invading nation prophesized by Daniel's carousel of despots.
It is your "Profits of Doom" who think its fully acceptable that China could somehow manage to breed, raise, train and outfit 200,000,000 horse mounted soldiers eager to travel thousands of miles over the world's most hostile terrain just to die in a scratch of worthless land along the eastern Med. Has anyone in your cabal ever noodled out the infrastructure and planning for such an operation and still think that China would rather do that than rain down a battery of ICBMs?
Has anyone even come up with a sane reason why Russia or China would go full-out against Israel?
Can you give any of us a reason why God would devote a huge part of His Revelation to reprobates who hate Him and have zero desire to know what is in store? Aren't you Dispies of the belief that you will miss most of that which is allegedly described in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation?
Furthermore, in each and every case where God dealt with Israel and raised up a nation, it was for a purpose, yet you have no purpose for most of what is allegedly predicted/interpreted by your Prophets of Doom in the Future! How can Israel be spanked for no Temple worship and for missing Jubilees when God has forbidden the Jews to even build a Temple or even have a biblical government ruled by priests? And why, after Christ's death on the cross would anyone ever rely on blood animal sacrifices? What kind of spiritual crisis do you guys get into when an ethnic Jew gets regrafted back into the tree of Abraham? Is he, because of DNA, required to continue to slaughter critters and abide by OT dietary laws, or can he enjoy the liberty of Christ's Righteousness?
Here is an example of how much Dispies hate sound doctrine and the integrity of the Word. You said:
The New Testament, of course, says just the opposite, the world will NOT get better and better but worse and worse
(Personally, I believe that the Bible speaks of no such thing, surely the oppression of the Roman Empire is Hell compared to anything today, but I do believe that the American Religion, characterized by Free Will soteriology and a Premillennial Dispensational eschatology is the Apostasy of our Age - but that is a different conversation.)
Yet Ezekiel 47:1-11 tells of the Great Expansion of the Gospel symbolized by living water to all the nations, starting in Jerusalem from the Temple built not by human hands, going from ankle deep, to the knees, waist to one that could not be crossed given to produce a people who bear great fruit in all seasons whose fruit of Righteousness is for food and medicine that feeds and cures the world. What do you think is more important to God, millions of people coming to a saving knowledge of our LORD, or your gun-in-the-mouth disappointment because you can't afford the 60"plasma TV and must settle for a 48" which we all know, according to Daniel is the sign of economic struggles signifying the Last Day!
You have the OT in contradiction to the NT. You have the NT in contradiction to what we see before our eyes how the Gospel has transformed the world and brought peace and prosperity to all corners of the world, to all men.
But hey, you want Doom & Gloom and are willing to trash and ridicule people who have hope and faith in a victorious God.
RJR-You are totally wrong on that one. Read Ezek 38-39 and you will see what happens to those who attack Israel.
OK, here we go:
Ezek 38:2-3 "Son of men, set thy face against Gog, and against the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him, And say, Thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I come against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal."
I don't have my magic mushrooms working for me - where is "Russia, Iran and Turkey" in this passage ?
Ezek 38:4,15"And I will destroy thee, and put hooks in thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth and all thine host, both horses and horsemen, all clothed with all sorts of armor, even a great multitude with bucklers and shields, all handling swords... all shall ride upon horses, even a great multitude and a mighty army."
Swords and horsemen. Don't tell me that this is really machine guns, fifth generation fighter jets and battle tanks, remember we are reading Ezekiel, the guy who introduced us to "Wheels within Wheels" when he didn't understand it, he described it to us. I think Ezekiel here knows what horses and swords look like.
We know they are safe.
Really? Then explain this passage:
Zech 13:8-9And it shall come to pass in all the land," Says the Lord,"That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire...
Pick one. Either they "are safe" or you have a really strange way of defining "safe" when you have 2/3rds of the Jews being killed.
Personally, I like the proper composite prophesy of Ezekiel 38, particularly the part where Israel is the "True Israel" and Gog and Magog are properly interpreted as those opposed to Christ and His Kingdom, they work tirelessly to tear down Christianity, and later in the game are joined by opportunists. This reaches its apex when Satan has been released (from the Realized/Post Mill eschatology) and when it gets looking real bad for the True/Realized Israel, then God takes down His enemies and humiliates them before the whole world.
>>I don’t have my magic mushrooms working for me - where is “Russia, Iran and Turkey” in this passage?<<
Magog was one of the sons of Japheth. “The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech and Tiras.” Genesis 10:2
The sons of Magog migrated to what is now Russia. The Greeks claimed they were the Scythians. The areas referred to include Russia, Iran, Turkey and other mid east countries. Surely in all of your Bible study you understand today’s countries as they relate to Biblical countries.
>>I think Ezekiel here knows what horses and swords look like.<<
Surely you can’t be telling me that in this verse you revert to a literal interpretation. Not you. How would you think someone in that time would try to understand or describe war implements?
>>Pick one. Either they “are safe” or you have a really strange way of defining “safe” when you have 2/3rds of the Jews being killed.<<
Now you are trying to put two different time periods together. In the war of Ezek 38-39, which is prior to the 7 year Tribulation period, the Israelis are defended by acts of God. It’s during the Tribulation period that 2/3rds of the Jews are killed. Even the Dominionists and Preterist folks agree on the battle of Armageddon don’t they?
As you read Ezekiel 38 and 39, it isn't just the creation of the nation of Israel that makes this prophecy seem likely to be fulfilled in the near future. The nations that God tells us will form this coalition against Israel seem more likely now than perhaps ever before to form just such an alliance. To understand the prophecies of Ezekiel about this future invasion, it's important to understand who the players will be.
There are many theories as to who will join in this future invasion of Israel. Before going through a list of the individual nations, I'll list some of the more common theories you'll hear when studying the prophecies from Ezekiel 38.
Ezekiel 38:1-6 The word of the Lord came to me; Son of man, set your face against Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal; prophesy against him and say: 'This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army - your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords. Persia, Cush and Put will be with them, all with shields and helmets, also Gomer with all its troops, and Beth Togarmah from the far north with all its troops - the many nations with you.'
1. Hashemite Kingdom Theory: The Islamic Nations will come against Israel either by an Iraqi-led, Jordanian led, or Turkish led coalition. The enemy from the north refers to the areas of Syria, Turkey, and Iraq. These Islamic nations make up the lands occupied by Magog, Gomer, Togarmah, Meshech and Tubal.
2. Caucus Theory: Gog and Magog are the Arab nations in an alliance with the Muslim republics of the former Soviet Union. This theory leaves out most of Russia, and includes only the southern part.
3. All Europe theory: Gog and Magog are the sons of Japeth thus the originators of the European races. Gog and Magog therefore indicates all of Europe. This is not a widely held theory and I could find little support for it.
4. Russian Theory: The Hebrew word 'rosh' in verse 3 is identified with Russia, 'Tubal' with Tiblisi or Tobolsk and 'Meshech' with Moscow, therefore Gog and Magog refers to Russia. This is one of the most commonly held views and is based on a different interpretation of the Hebrew word Rosh (used as a noun rather than adjective), similarities in the pronunciation of words, and the Greek translation of Rosh referring to a tribe of people found in what is now Russia.
5. Indo-European Theory: Gog and Magog include the nations descending from Japheth: Russia, the Caucasus(Turkey), Iraq, and the Islamic republics of Central Asia. The coalition is an alliance of Arab nations, Muslim republics, Georgia, southern Russia and the Black sea area.
These are some of the theories you will find if you do any research into the prophecies of Ezekiel 38. You may also find interpretations that are a combination of these, and in fact, I tend to find more evidence for a version of the Indo-European and Caucacus Theory.
Before looking at the participants of this invasion in more detail, it's important to understand that the war described in Ezekiel 38 is not the same as the war that will come at the end of the tribulation when Jesus returns to defeat the Antichrist and establish his millennial kingdom. How do we know this? The war at the end of the tribulation, known as Armageddon, is a world war. Revelation tells us that this battle will involve all nations. The war described in Ezekiel includes specific nations that invade Israel. Also, Armageddon is at the climax of the tribulation, while the war described in Ezekiel comes well before then.
Ezekiel 38:1-7 gives 10 names as participants in the invasion of Israel that will follow the regathering of the Jews to their homeland. First mentioned, is the land of Magog. The most common identity for Magog is in Central Asia. The Jewish historian Josephus said, "Magog founded the Magogians, called Scythians by the Greeks. Scythians were a nomadic tribe who inhabited the ancient territory from Central Asia across the southern part of ancient Russia." Today this area is inhabited by the former Soviet Republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and possibly northern parts of Afghanistan. All of these nations that make up the land of Magog have one thing in common - Islam. Militant Islam has been on the rise in these countries since the fall of the Soviet Union, when Islam no longer had to be practiced secretly. Radical Islamic groups such as the Islamic Renaissance Party, the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan, and Hizb ut-Tahrir al-Islam are working to reunite central Asian nations and ultimately the entire Muslim world. It is from this part of the world that a leader will arise to bring together a great coalition of nations to invade Israel.
Other versions of the Bible translate 'rosh' as an adjective. The argument here is that in the Massoretic text the words 'chief prince' carry the accents Tiphha and Zaqeph-gadol. The Tiphha appears under the resh of the Hebrew word 'rosh'; the Zaqeph-gadol appears on top of the sin of the Hebrew word 'nish'. The Tiphha to the right, underneath the initial consonant of the world 'rosh', or chief, is prepositive and does not mark the tone syllable. The world 'nish' or prince has the accent Zaqeph-gadol which is disjunctive and indicates a pause. So, verse three would read:
"Behold, I am against thee, o Gog, the prince, {pause} chief of Meshech and Tubal"
Rather than:
"Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, prince of Rosh, Meshech and Tubal."
Here 'rosh' is translated head or chief as it is 423 other times in the Old Testament.
In short, if you believe 'rosh' should be translated as a proper noun you may find the interpretation that Russia will be a part of this coalition more reasonable. If you believe 'rosh' should be an adjective here, you need only concern yourself with who Meshech and Tubal are. I tend to have a problem with the "it sounds like Russia" theory, and find the translation of rosh as an adjective more believable, but to each his own.
Meshech and Tubal in verses 2 and 6, were the names of the 6th and 5th sons of Japheth, the son of Noah (Gen. 10:2). Ezekiel 27:13 also mentions Meshech and Tubal as trading partners with Tyre (Modern Lebanon). It's likely that Meshech and Tubal refer to the ancient Moshi/Mushki and Tubalu/Tibareni who dwelled in the area around, primarily south of, the Black and Caspian Sea in Ezekiel's day. Today these nations would be in the modern country of Turkey, parts of Southern Russia and Northern Iran. All areas with a Muslim majority.
Verse 6 adds Gomer and Beth-Togarmah to the coalition. "Gomer" was the first son of Japheth. The Gomerites were the ancient Cimmerians, expelled in 700 B.C. from the southern steppes of Russia into what is today Turkey. "Togarmah" is the 3rd son of Gomer and beth at the beginning of the name is the Hebrew word for 'house' or 'place of'. In Ezekiel's time there was a city in Cappodocia (Modern Turkey) known as Tegarma, Tagarma, Til-garimmu, and Takarama.
The possibility that four of the names mentioned in Ezekiel are now in Turkey makes a pretty strong argument for Turkey being a part of the invasion of Israel. Current circumstances in that country also lend this view some credibility. Since the break-up of the Soviet Union, Turkey has been gaining inroads into Central Asia (Magog). It is also linked to Central Asia both ethnically and linguistically, and has a growing number of political parties that support opposition to Israel, establishment of a Turkish Islamic Republic, and the worldwide rule of Islam.
Verse 5 brings three more names into the mix. God tells us that "Persia, Cush and Put will be with them".
Persia is a pretty easy one. In 539 B.C. the Persians conquered the city of Babylon. You only need look at a map of the ancient Persian Empire to see that it was centered in the nation known today as Iran. In fact Iran was called Persia until 1935 when it was changed to Iran and then to the Islamic Republic of Iran in 1979 during the Iranian Revolution. It's no secret that Iran is an archenemy of Israel and the West, and a supporter of the Palestinians. They are actively working to get other Arab countries to change camps in their cooperation with the U.S. and Israel.
The ancient kingdom of Cush in Ezekiels time was the land just south of Egypt on the Nile River. Today this land is occupied by Sudan. Sudan is home to the National Islamic Front, is ruled by an Islamic military dictatorship, a strong supporter of Iraq, home to Osama bin Landen from 1991-1996, and harbors countless Islamic terrorist groups. Sudan would easily fit into the coalition as it is already close allies with Iran, trading military supplies for docking rights on the Red Sea shipping routes.
Ancient Put was the land just west of Egypt, or what is today Libya. Libya is another sponsor of terrorism, and openly refuses to recognize Israel's right to even exist. When the coalition against Israel is formed, Libya won't have to be asked twice to join.
Verse 6 adds "and many people with you." The nations listed specifically are all somewhat distant from Israel. By adding "and many people with you", God may have been indicating that those nations and peoples in closer proximity to Israel will join the Jihad. Other nations that might join the alliance are Iraq, Syria, Jordon, and Egypt. All of them are Islamic nations, and all of them would not hesitate to support the destruction of Israel were the opportunity to join such a vast coalition presented to them.
Below is a list of the nations that are listed in Ezekiel as Israel's last-days enemies:
The reasons God gives us for the enemies' invasion of Israel are further proof that the attack will be an Islamic invasion.
The first reason God gives for the invasion in Ezekiel 38 is a desire by the coalition to cover the Jewish land and wipe them off the face of the earth. Urged on by a hatred of the Jewish people they will seek to destroy them and the nation of Israel. This is the stated goal today of almost every Islamic nation in the Middle East. The only nations not currently in a declared state of war with Israel are Egypt, Turkey, and Jordan, yet they would certainly be glad to see Israel eliminated if presented with a willing leader and an opportunity to rid the Middle East of Islam's archenemy.
God tells us that they also come to "seize plunder…and to capture great spoil". Many verses in the Quran advocated plundering for the benefit of Islam and there are several instances of this war tactic throughout the history of Muhammad's life. In fact, it is a common theme in his teachings.
This invasion of Israel and attack on the Jewish people will indeed be a Jihad, but it will also be the final Jihad.
Ezekiel 38:13 "Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish with all its villages will say to you, 'Have you come to capture spoil? Have you assembled your company to seize plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to capture great spoil?'"
As this invasion develops, a few countries will make a lame protest. This isn't hard to believe when you look at the indifference most nations display as Israel is repeatedly attacked by terrorists.
The specific nations who question Gog's actions are "Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish". Sheba and Dedan are not hard to identify. These were ancient names for what is known today as Saudi Arabia.
Tarshish is most commonly agreed to be ancient Tartessus or the area of present day Spain in Western Europe. In Ezekiels day, Tarshish was in the farthest west regions of the known world. By referring to Tarshish and all her merchants, Ezekiel could have been indicating that Western Europe will join with Saudi Arabia in denouncing the invasion. Interestingly, Saudi Arabia is the only Arab nation to consistently side with the West against radical Islamic elements around the world. The royals of Saudi Arabia mostly side with the West out of an interest in self preservation, and at times oppose us behind the scenes, but they would most probably put on a show of opposition to radical Islam in order to maintain the support of western governments.
A similar alliance has been seen once before during the Gulf War of the early 1990's. The U.S., Western Europe, and Saudi Arabia were allied against Iraq, while Russia, Iran, Sudan, Libya, and most other Middle East nations either aligned with Iraq, or against the U.S. either by directly opposing it, or by remaining neutral.
The good news is that God wins. God will come against the invaders Himself and destroy them. Verses 19-20 say that there will be an earthquake so great that people all over the world will tremble. In the ensuing chaos, nations will begin to turn on each other. The confusion will lead to the largest case of death by friendly fire ever seen.
Verse 22 of Ezekiel tells us that there will be plagues, torrents of rain, hailstones, and burning sulfur. Just as God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, he will destroy these invading forces. Once again, God will make it known to all the nations that He is the Lord. He will give the nations proof that He is the Holy One in Israel.
This war against Israel will pave the way for the Antichrist's military rule over the world and his demand that the world worship him as God. With Islam defeated and the Christian Church raptured, opposition to worshipping a man as God will be greatly reduced. Those who are left would have no army with which to mount much of a protest.
So, how should Christians respond to this prophecy? In Ezekiel 39:6,7, and 28 God says that this end-times battle will happen that "they will know that I am the Lord". This message that God's purpose is to cause Israel and the other nations to know He is Lord is repeated over 60 times in Ezekiel. By learning about prophecy and teaching it to others, people will be able to see the glory, majesty, and sovereignty of God in the fulfillment of His divine word. By knowing our Bible and teaching it to others, they will be able to see that there is a divine creator, and a plan for them. Through Jesus Christ and the salvation he offers us freely, there is victory and an eternity more glorious than they can imagine.
Your entire post assumes I am a Dispensationalist, I am not, I am Premillennialist, however. As to yourself, you never said clearly what position you hold to. In my 40 years of being in the middle of the “prophecy wars” I have learned not to trust someone who hides what he believes. Preterists and Postmills do it all the time.
I’ll sum up your post in a few words, don’t throw the baby out with the wash water. Granted, people tend to interpret prophesied future events prematurely.
Read the Pseudipigrapha if you want to see a prime example of it. These were Jews in the years before Christ who contrived all sorts of scenarios about the Messianic future, all of them premature and wrong. Yet Christ arrived right on time fulfilling the messianic prophesies despite all their schemes.
The same today with the Dispensationalists, they’ve been wrong on so many things it isn’t funny. But the prophetic scripture will be fulfilled precisely despite them.
Same with the Preterists and Postmills, and yourself whatever you are, you are disgusted with the Dispensationalists and you throw the baby out, opting instead for even more false prophetic schemes. Prophecy will be fulfilled no matter what people do with it.
Surely in all of your Bible study you understand today’s countries as they relate to Biblical countries.
Yes, and I am aware of the archaeological evidence that dates the Scythians to Ezekiel's time to maybe 300AD where by that time they were bred out of existence.
Since there are no such things as people of Gog and Magog, the claim that they are to invade Israel is equivalent to saying that the Nephilim will follow and eat the few remaining survivors. It just doesn't make sense to make-up activities about a people who haven't been around for over 1500 years.
Since they did indeed exist for a period of time, and since the weapons and transportation described by Ezekiel seem appropriate for that time, why is it impossible for the Futurist to accept that a portion of this composite prophecy was actually fulfilled by Scythians on horseback riding in to attack the inhabitants of Jerusalem during the years they actually did exist? Especially since this was the only time when Jerusalem didn't have walls around it because they were all knocked down by Nebuchadnezzar at the start of the Captivity.
Even the Dominionists and Preterist folks agree on the battle of Armageddon don’t they?
I don't have any idea, maybe we should ask some?
Thanks for the reading material in the latter post - gives me something to look over and ponder.
Your entire post assumes I am a Dispensationalist, I am not, I am Premillennialist
My sincere apologies for what clearly would appear to be an insult on my part. Please forgive me.
Nevertheless, you can delete much of that stuff except my problems with your system's fantasy about Christ making blood animal sacrifices to Himself in a physically restored Temple.
Chiliasts have been rightly dismissed over the millennia, and I shall continue to honor that fine tradition since I believe that our LORD reigns right now in a heavenly Kingdom and doesn't need to subject Himself to the profane and reprobate for a literal thousand years. The physical earthly rule has been a Jewish fantasy for ages and it is sad to see that some within the Church community are thinking like the pre-Pentecost disciples.
I have learned not to trust someone who hides what he believes.
I agree, and that is why I appreciate your truth in labeling. I believe I have been pretty forward in expressing my eschatological views in the past bunch of months, so all should be well between us.
...opting instead for even more false prophetic schemes....
You may think so, but they are the majority views since Paul's day to present - at least none of the schemes you assume I hold are blasphemous, like Chiliasts who wish to see a restored blood animal sacrificial system because Christ's apparently wasn't good enough. Or a system that rejects Christ's reign right now because it is based on apocalyptic Judaic literature (Esdras, Enoch, etc.) that has forever expected a physical "throne of David" sort of earthly reign.
(I just plowed through Hill's "Regnum Caloreum", interesting take on the ante-Nicene claims by the Chiliasts)"
Nevertheless, I don't have a beef with Chiliasts or Semi preterist PostMills since I understand where y'all get your respective foundations. I'm just resisting this Age's Apostasy which is the American Religion's Dysfunctionalism.
Thank you for the ping Abu Afak.
Yep...Not often I see this fact on FR. As you likely know Russia is moving right along and gaining ground as never before. They will be defeated but watching the build up, as much as is reported, is interesting to follow. The "Hook" is forthcoming but as you say 'when' remains to be seen.
By Joel C. Rosenberg
(Denver, Colorado, December 28, 2010)
— A serious new threat to the peace and security of Israel and the people of the epicenter is rapidly emerging - the prospect that..... the Palestinian leadership will unilaterally declare their own independent, sovereign state as early as the summer of 2011, and attempt to divide Jerusalem,....... and that the world will try to force Israel to accept this new state rather than require the Palestinians to sit down and negotiate a fair and just arrangement that both sides can accept.
Make no mistake: a unilateral declaration by the Palestinians is not a recipe for peace. It is a recipe for war. Over 450,000 Israelis live in the West Bank. They are not going to quietly accept a Palestinian government in Ramallah deciding their fate. Nor will these Israeli settlers allow the Palestinian police to forcibly remove them from their villages, towns and cities. Especially Jerusalem. They will fight back. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu would be under enormous domestic political pressure to back these Jewish citizens with the force of the Israeli military, and should violence intensify, he would likely order the IDF into battle. The results would not be pretty, and the Palestinian people would pay a heavy price.
World leaders, therefore, should be putting enormous pressure on Palestinian leaders to sit down to direct negotiations with the Israelis and find a peaceful solution through diplomacy, lest violence result. Sadly, that’s not what is happening. Instead, world leaders are putting enormous pressure on Israeli leaders to cut a fast deal with the Palestinians or face the prospect of Palestinian state being imposed upon them. Already, Brazil, Argentina, Bolivia, Uruguay and Turkey are moving to formally recognize a Palestinian state. More countries are preparing to do so soon.
Bible prophecy makes it clear that the nations of the world will, in the last days, divide up the land of Israel. But the Scriptures are also crystal clear that the nations will face the judgment of Almighty God for doing so. “For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them to the Valley of Jehoshaphat [”the Lord judges”]. Then I will enter into judgment with them there on behalf of My people and My inheritance, Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations; and they have divided up My land.” (Joel 3:1-2).
It is important for those interested in the prophetic arena to discern these are two different wars.
The war at the end of the tribulation, known as Armageddon, is A WORLD WAR...involving all nations.
The war described in Ezekiel includes SPECIFIC NATIONS that INVADE ISARAEL.
Armageddon is at the climax of the tribulation, while the war described in Ezekiel comes well before then.
There are many evidences that link Turks, Huns and Mongols from their earliest formations as tribes of Magogians and Scythians: (1) their Ural-Altaic languages; (2) their use of Runic inscriptions; (3) their coming from the north; and (4) their extensive use of horses and archery. Ezekiel describes them in similar terms: Ezekiel 38:4, “I will turn you around, put hooks in your jaws and bring you out with your whole army-your horses, your horsemen fully armed, and a great horde with large and small shields, all of them brandishing their swords.” Ezekiel 39:2-3, “I will turn you around and drag you along. I will bring you from the far north and send you against the mountains of Israel. Then I will strike your bow from your left hand and make your arrows drop from your right hand.”
Similarities remain in the languages of Mongolian, Tungusic and Turkic to this day, having many words in common. These Ural-Altaic languages have been historically considered “Scythian languages” or “Tatar languages” which make up some 40 languages spoken by about 100 million people. Examples inlcude Turkish, Kazakh, Kirghiz, Bashkir, Azerbaijani, Uzbek, Samoyed, Oirat, Kalmyk, and Mogol, plus similar languages spoken by peoples living between the Black and Caspian seas. Other language families, including Finno-Ugric (Finnish, Hungarian) and Balto-Slavic (Russian, Ukrainian, Czech) have affinities to the Ural-Altaic language family. http://www.soundchristian.com/magog/
Interesting chart.....
|————————————Noah————————————| -——————————————| -—————|
| | | |
Japheth Ham Genesis 10 | |
|-—————| | | |
Gomer Magog—————|———————| Canaan —————————————| |
| | | | | |
Ashkenaz Gog-hasan Donghu Hiongnu Seni (Sinites) —————————| |
| | | | | | |
Scythians<-——————————————>Huns<————>Sianu (Sino-Asians) | |
| | | | | | Ezekiel |
Saka<———>Gogarene Tungus Tu-kui | Historical | 38 & 39 |
| | | | | Tribes, | |
| | Ruruan Turks<————>| Peoples, | |
| | | | | Nations | |
| | Mengwu-Shiwei | | | |
| | | | | | |
| | Mongols<-——————————>| -——————————————| |
| | | | |
| | | | |
|—— Peoples of present-day Russia, Siberia, Eurasia, Asia Minor ————————————————|
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There are many evidences that link Turks, Huns and Mongols from their earliest formations as tribes of Magogians and Scythian
Yes, I suppose you have your set of facts which are quite different from another set of facts that say otherwise.
Similarities remain in the languages of Mongolian, Tungusic and Turkic to this day, having many words in common.
Using that exact same logic one can argue that because the people of central and south America have many words in common with Latin, clearly all of the people from central and south America are ancient Romans.
You can understand then why I consider these arguments similar to that which one can easily get into in a CrEvo discussion. You have a world-view that is largely anti-doctrinal and at its core blasphemous, and I have a world-view that says integrity of doctrine and God's character is primary. We both use the Bible to support our claims but because of our world views we interpret the passages differently using wildly different templates.
So when I read that in Ezekiel's vision they will be having animal blood sacrifices, I know, from a doctrinal standpoint that it is blasphemy for that to be fulfilled literally in the future and thus I look to Scriptures for a solution. When the Dispensationalist sees that 800 pound gorilla, he ignores it because it will mess up the camp-fire story.
Ezekiel speaks both of an actual people, in which to some measure this composite prophecy of near/far was fulfilled physically "near" in some respects, and the spiritual "far" aspects of this are found in Jesus Christ, His Church and the Gog/Magog representing those hostile to Christianity (which is consistent with the use of Gog and Magog in Revelation). My interpretation is consistent with both History and Doctrine. Dispensational interpretation make for an interesting yet vulgar fictional camp-fire story, since it ignores history and shuns sound doctrine, but it does manage to get people all worked up and anxious to buy more and more fortune telling books. Mission accomplished.
Like CrEvo threads, it is easy to accept the premise of the opponent: that material appeared spontaneously out of no where, the laws of physics came on their own etc. Dittos with this discussion, if I ignore the blasphemies and contradictions, its easy to get into a game of quibbling over archaeological trivialities.
That's exactly right which is why the debates and differences. All use their own resources..and they are generally in conflict with one another. You do have yours and others have theirs.
But..my world views do not carry the weight of interpretation. Nor should any. It is what it is....... One may claim and 'believe' anothers view is "anti-doctrinal" and "blasphemous", which doesn't make it so for the saying of it..... Equally so one may 'believe' their view holds to the "intergrity of doctrine and God's character as primary"..but that too is what it is..a 'belief'.
New Agers 'believe' they have the truth and history...Mormons and others. Presenting facts as stated by numerous sources who have written History to support that 'belief'.
My point is each believes what they determine is the truth from those resources....in the end someone is wrong. Which will indeed be proved with time and tide.
The fact is that if significant numbers of Israelis actually converted to Christ, then the prophecy pimps would be out of business. Their theology depends on spiritual pessimism and declension. What lies ahead for unbelieving Israel is wholesale slaughter of millions after the Church is comfortably removed.
The rapturenauts teach that Jesus is not really King of kings and Lord of lords until after the second coming. Even though all authority has been given to Him over heaven and earth (Matt. 28:19), He is incapable of bringing the nations to Himself in this age. Escapism is the route of the rapturenauts.
I see the folks at World Nut Daily dumped one prophecy pimp, Hal Lindsey, in favor of another, Rosenberg, apparently because Mr Rosenberg was more decided anti-Islam in his futuristic views than Mr. Lindsey. Traded one crank for another.
I did not mention World Net daily nor do I visit that site. So using my post to air your rant and make it be known is underhanded.
Furthermore ...’Rosenberg’ is highly respected on the International Scene as well as statewide, politically and otherwise with many national leaders. Religious and otherwise as well. You are barking up the wrong tree.
Your rant carries little weight...and you sound as though you support Islam by ranting against those who stand up against it. Your rage is easily seen as only that.
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