Posted on 12/12/2010 10:47:16 AM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
California contrail: Four conflicting eyewitness reports
One month after the KCBS video purporting to show a missile contrail off the coast of California went viral, a heated debate over what exactly created the contrail persists. Experts have offered convincing analysis supporting the theory that the contrail represents an SLBM launch, while internet pundits have assembled a formidable collection of evidence that the contrail was created by UPS flight 902. The debate is seemingly at an impasse, and it might be a good time to step back from the intense data analysis and review the basic facts of November 8, 2010.There are two known eyewitnesses who captured images of the contrail. Gil Leyvas is the helicopter camera man for KCBS in Los Angeles who videotaped the contrail and Rick Warren lives on Long Beach and photographed the contrail from his tenth story balcony. A 50 minute phone interview with Leyvas was obtained for this report and discussed further via email, and Warren was also contacted by email.
According to Leyvas, his video was obtained while filming a sunset view for a KCBS weather report. As he was filming, Leyvas noticed an object on the horizon that appeared to be climbing vertically out of the ocean, and he zoomed in on the object. He videotaped the contrail for a total of ten minutes and subsequently continued to view the contrail for an additional ten minutes. Leyvas maintains that the object itself that created the contrail only remained in view for two to three minutes. For 30 to 45 seconds, the object glowed brightly and then seemed to disappear from view. His initial impression was that the object was traveling east towards the coast. On reviewing the video later, he had the impression the object may instead have been heading away from the coast, towards the northwest.
The highly unusual appearance of the sunset contrail shown on TV and posted online, combined with Leyvas perception that the object creating the contrail only remained in view for two to three minutes, constitutes the primary basis upon which many observers believe the object was a Sub Launched Ballistic Missile.
Rick Warren wasnt sure what the object was that he was photographing on November 8th. I was shooting with a telephoto lens and looking through a viewfinder so I never really saw the separation of the object and the contrail until I looked at the photos, but Im sure that this whole thing lasted way too long to be a missile. I see lots of contrails from my 10th floor balcony but the difference in this one was that it seemed to be going up.
Having seen many contrails, what stood out for Warren was the vertical nature of the contrail, not that it looked like a missile exhaust plume. Some of his photos of the contrail were posted on the local ABC7 website, and were utilized by Mick West of Contrailscience.com to create a composite image of the flight progression of the object. The time stamps on Warrens photos were used to establish that the object creating the contrail remained in view for 4 minutes 43 seconds in Warrens photos. Based on altitude and position, the object first appeared in Leyvas video at least five minutes prior to Warrens photos. After seeing Wests analysis of the images, Warren says, Im now of the opinion that it was indeed a plane."
At this point, one of the most glaring discrepancies between these eyewitness accounts must be addressed. Most observers looking at Warrens images agree that the small dark object which appears at the top of each of his later photos is the same craft creating the plume that was seen in his earlier photos as well as that which was seen in Leyvas video.
If the object that created the contrail was still visible in Warrens photos, then the object itself is not likely to have been a missile. Solid fuel engines such as those used in an SLBM create an uninterrupted exhaust plume for two to three minutes, after which time the solid fuel is spent, and the missile is usually out of view.
On the other hand, when an airliner transitions from cold moist air to warmer drier air, the dew point changes and contrail formation decreases. In the case of USP902, the airliner would have been transitioning from moist cool air at altitude over the ocean to warmer, drier air over land. This could explain the contrail disappearing as the object moved farther east.
Mick West created a "chronological cut" of Leyvas video and posted it to YouTube. The transition from moist cool air over the ocean to warmer, drier air over land may have occurred at 1:17 to 1:20 of the chronological cut, which Warren referred to as the separation of the object and the contrail. When still images from Leyvas video are compared to the overlay of Warrens photos, there is a remarkable similarity and continuity between the two sets of images, providing a better time frame for Leyvas video within the context of Warrens time stamps:
When Leyvas was initially queried regarding these later photos, he replied,
the [Contrailscience composite] animation only shows the path the plume drifted and not anything in flight. The 30-45 seconds of video I captured in which I could see the object (the portion of the video showing the glow/flame of the object at its pinnacle) occurred 8-10 minutes prior to the animated images of the animation (if the time stamps are accurate). I have no way of telling if those time stamps are accurate since the raw video has no real-time time stamp associated with it. I can only go by an estimated time based on the time we launched out of John Wayne airport and the approximate time of our weather shot. My guess is that the time stamps are relatively close to the accurate time. However, what you are seeing in those images is the plume drifting and not anything in flight.
Leyvas still maintains the object creating the contrail is not visible in Warrens photos 8 to 10 minutes later:
The separate smaller trail that is separate from the main body of the plume and that was captured by Warren in his photos, which makes it seem as if the object continued in flight, appears in my video to possibly be the top portion of the plume that partly dissipates leaving a segment of the tip adrift - detached from the main body of the plume. (I highlight "possibly be" because during that portion of the video, I zoom in and out and pan off and back onto the plume, so I'm not sure if what we are seeing is a stage of separation like that of a missile or if it's the tip of the plume separating from the main portion). I did zoom into that portion to see if I could see a craft of some kind (at the time I thought that there was a chance the object was still making condensation/exhaust) but there was nothing there creating that segment. Had there been, I know I would have been able to see it with the high-powered lens I was using. Add to that - if it was traveling toward us, the closer it would come the easier it would be to see it, but there was nothing there. That's why I said it was merely the plume adrift and not anything continuously flying.
Though there was no time code associated with the raw footage I shot, you are still able to accurately time the footage from the moment I started the recording (as we departed John Wayne airport) to the final moments of the mystery missile story. When I play the video I can time the duration of the object in flight which was between 30-45 seconds of "Glow Time" - which is inclusive within, and at the end of the 2-3 minute estimated flight time from which the plume was visible at the horizon ... I can rely on the raw footage as it plays to gauge my estimated times since it plays back in real time on the player deck's control track timer.
There were also two unknown witnesses who captured images of the contrail, both anonymous posters on the image hosting website Flickr. A photographer on Hermosa Beach, north of Leyvas and Warren, uploaded a photo of the November 8 sunset and only subsequently realized he had captured the same contrail due to media reports. From his vantage point, without the setting sun directly back-lighting the contrail, it apparently appeared similar to the other contrails in his sunset photo.
Another anonymous photographer uploaded photos of clouds at sunset on November 8, and noticed a bright horizontal contrail that he subsequently associated with the media reports regarding the contrail. Notice that in the case of these latter two eyewitnesses, the first noted nothing unusual about the contrail until he read media reports about it, and the second viewed a horizontal, not vertical contrail.
Finally, the opinions of the known military experts must be taken into consideration. Several highly credible experts have stated their opinion that the contrail in question represented the launching of an SLBM.
A little further background from Leyvas might shed more light on the way the video was edited and presented to the public. Leyvas related that the video was taken during sweeps week in his TV market, and part of his job during sweeps week is to go out and look for and capture video of interest for sweeps week ratings. The video he captured of the contrail was subsequently heavily edited before being aired, and less than two minutes of the ten minutes of video has been seen by these experts. From the perspective of garnering sweeps week ratings, the footage was certainly successful.
It may be that the experts would modify their opinion based on viewing the entire footage. The footage is owned by the local CBS affiliate and nothing was found by the Department of Defense in reviewing the footage that would prevent its release to the public. According to Leyvas, it might still be available on their server. If that is the case, it should just be a matter of uploading the unedited ten minutes of video to YouTube to put an end to the debate.
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LOL It should be. The Flightaware graphic was made from the UPS902 flight path. How could it possibly differ? Where is your data about what was in Leyvas' video?
I don't know where you were the day of the event but that graphic was all over the media...it was the only one I saw plotting location. Like I said don't ask me where they came up with that...I'm just an observer. I didn't make the graphic. Now if it was reported over Cataliina wouldn't you think they would have put the yellow dot right on the island? Seems like a good idea to me.
I don't have to believe anything about this. It was just reported that way and I make no claims to its accuracy..point is did anyone who interviewed the guy with the camera get GPS coordinates from him?
Brilliant. You post two graphics that you say show a discrepancy between the location of what Leyvas filmed, and the flightpath of UPS902. But you have absolutely no idea how the location of the yellow marker was chosen in the first graphic. Here is THE reference from Leyvas that includes 35 miles..."The onboard camera showed a plume twisting up from the horizon and narrowing as it climbed into the sky near Catalina Island, about 35 miles west of Los Angeles, he said."
So some media outlet selects a point at random, 35 miles north of Catalina island, and you think that proves what Leyvas filmed couldn't be UPS902. UPS902 was not only "near" Catalina Island. It flew right over it. So what more closely describes the only description of the event we have from the only reported eyewitness of the event. A point 35 miles to the north of Catalina Island, or an aircraft that tracks right over Catalina Island?
Great. Your only source is a guess by Leyvas. That's exactly what I told you the first time you said it and you accused me of making "...the biggest horse ^#&$ statement anyone has made yet!" Looks like you actually are as dense as I first thought.
I guess you aren't getting the point I'm making. That chopper had GPS on board you can be sure...they knew exactly where they were...you need to ask Leyvas was the event over Catalina..(what does "near" mean?) or to the northwest? Seem like such a simple question for him to answer. I am "brilliant" enough to not go chasing and wasting my time getting answers that could be easily gleaned from the horses mouth...;o)
See the Flightaware graphic. For all the reasons pointed out here... Post 410 it is the data about what is in the Leyvas video.
Yeah what a terrible source...the guy who actually shot the video...bwahahahaha!!!...(why do I bother?...)...and it would be more than a guess...if I was flying my 195 in that area and saw something that made me shoot video of it...I'd know damn well where I was (you have to to fly in congested LA airspace) and could give you a very accurate description of the location of what I saw...not just a "near Catalina" answer...
That's pretty much all you've got when it comes down to it.
He already did answer the question. He said "near" Catalina Island. MY point is that you cannot use a graphic produced by some media source to make a claim that the event Leyvas filmed was no where near the UPS902 flightpath, when the media graphic does not match the description of the person who filmed the event. The graphic is not accurate. The UPS902 flightpath was "near" Catalina Island. The yellow dot pasted on the media graphic is not.
That's it??? Well then you ought to press him for a better answer than little 'ole me..doncha think?....;o)
Well hell that convinces me!!!...LOL!!!
Sadly, that is pretty much true. I've hoped to find some faint ray of logical, rational thought process from you. But it just isn't there. Dense as granite. Fun to hammer away on. But basically thick as a brick.
And you know that...how???....:o0
Every one of those points has been gone over a hundred times. None hold water. You are right about one thing the contrailscience analysis is about the Leyvas video (what else would it be about?) but none of it is from the Leyvas video. It was all created from flight path data based on an assumption that AWE808, oops, UPS902 created the plume. That's it, an assumption. There is no evidence, just analysis, that the two are the same. And the analysis is very weak.
Now that you've given up on your circular logic for an airplane contrail I guess you can stop your pathetic lecturing on forum rules now too.
Actually, his first answer is sufficient given all the other data out there. Really, the single still from his video below is enough to determine the bearing of what he shot. Everything else he could provide is a guess. And guessing at ranges is almost always inaccurate. Especially over water.
Funny.
You're killing me here! That has got to be the lamest statement about this I've heard to date....LOLOL!
Ahem...ok...define "near" then....so when I talk to ATC next time....and they ask me my location I'll see if it flies with them when I give them a: " I'm near" something or someplace for a position report..:o)
As opposed to the counter analysis which is simply "That looks like a missile because I say it does." Got it.
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