Replies

>EXCEPT the argument in WKA is sound. I like the reasoning in the dissent better,

But I’ve just shown how the Supreme court can take something that is unmistakable, the prohibition against Ex Post Facto law, and twist it into saying something completely different.

>but I think the decision accurately reflects what the Founder intended.

Again, quoting the Supreme Court as the evidence of the intent of the Founders is NOT sound reasoning, especially when even such a plain-language prohibition was disregarded.

>Toss out as many red herrings as you wish, but WKA stands solid on its own merits.

How is it a red herring to point out that the Supreme Court can, and has, made rulings contrary to the meaning of the Constitution?

Oh, BTW, on the subject of [English] Common Law do you happen to remember the Magna Carts?
Basically it was a bunch of the nobles getting together to force the King to sign a binding document under threat of war/death/expulsion.

If’n you want to cite that then what’s to [legally] stop some section of America from seizing the Congress while it is in session and forcing them to sign on to Constitutional Amendments? If so, I think I need to raise such a force to get the following 10 Amendments put into the Constitution:

1 - The Untied States shall, in no way, tax the property of the individual.
2 - The United States, if imposing taxes upon income, shall use a uniform rate (with no exceptions) which is not greater than ten percent.
3 - The authority of the Congress to regulate the value of monies is hereby Repealed.
3.a — The value of one US Dollar shall be that of 1/16,000 lb.
3.b — Because the Congress shall still have the power to define weights and measures the pound refereed to in 3.a is approx 453.59237 grams.
3.c — There shall be no federal minimum wage.
4 - The Congress, being a poor steward of the Full Faith and Credit of the United States is hereby restricted on its assumption of debt:
4.a — All debts & monetary wages payable by the Federal Government shall be made in the form of the physical transference of Silver or Gold.
4.b — The Treasury shall make a Report of all monies physically in its position at least once a year; misreporting shall be punished by death upon conviction thereof.
4.c — The United States will not enter into any debt which results in the total debt-obligation of the United States to be in excess of One-Hundred-Ten percent of the monies physically on-hand in the Treasury.
5 - No Ex-Felon, that is someone who having committed a felony and served the sentence imposed, shall have any Right or Privilege of Citizenship denied.
5 - Any organization funded, in any way, by the federal government must allow the private Citizen to bear arms on its premises.
6 - Any Supreme Court ruling may be tried and overturned by a majority vote of a Jury consisting of the Supreme Courts of the several states.
7 - The 17th Amendment is hereby repealed.
8 - The 12th Amendment is hereby repealed.
9 - If, during elections for President the Senate’s ballot-vote be equally divided, then the current Vice President will choose from among the candidates tied candidates receiving the most votes who shall be the new President and who shall be the new Vice President. [this amends Art2, Sec 1]
10 - Any government agent, having seized effects in violation of Amendment 4, shall be personally liable for four times the valuation of said items, the legality of the item notwithstanding. If multiple agents are involved in the seizure than they are all so liable.

Dude, you kill me sometimes.

Check this out... Vattel was not writing an original work per-say! Remember, this book is a compendium. Its a book that takes the best of previous societies which proved successful in the past. It takes the best of history at that time, going back to the Roman Senate and working its way through time and advancements in governments. Vattel GOT his definition of a Natural Born Citizen - someone born to two parents who are citizens of that nation, and born upon its soil. the reason he does so, is because if you are looking at a leader with Command of the Armies, you HAD to know where that person’s loyalties lay. Aside from the men in the room, who had proven their worth and EARNED their places in writing the Constitution, what means would be used to determine that as best as possible? To Make CERTAIN no other nation had any claim on the child; that child is a citizen ONLY of the United States. This only happens with TWO parents who are citizens, and born upon the soil of that nation. In ANY other combination, the child might be a citizen, but not a Natural Born one. Natural Born Citizen isn’t a fluffy mistake by the founders. They were doing all they could to assure the people who were following them, that their leadership in the future would be led by those with sole and singular loyalty to the United States of America only, and BY BIRTH.

In particular the same book by Vattel also tells us quite clearly, that citizenship is passed from father to son. Obama was born as British as he is American. He was not, and never could have been a Natural Born Citizen. Not with what we have been told about his parentage.

Before Obama, we had presidents who would BOW TO NO ONE. Period. Why? Because Americans BOW TO NO ONE! We are AMERICA! and dang it we do what we do because that’s what we want to create! Thats what America is! Our founders wanted for us to have leadership which would bow to no one. The NBC clause is a DELIBERATE and well reasoned inclusion into the Constitution. It prevents cretins like Obama, IF IT IS FOLLOWED! And the proof lay in all the Presidents of the United States, ALL of them.... and tell me WHEN some other President EVER bowed to anyone. Let alone the dozen Obama has bowed to....

We have had good and bad presidents before... but they didn’t bow to anyone, because America bows to no one. We are unto ourselves, and this is a big part of our success!

Now I am sorry, but the soft tyranny you are selling falls short for one GLARING reason.... It’s just flat wrong. Vattel wrote his book in 1752 or so. The Constitution had not been written yet, let alone ratified, let alone gone to the point of having 14 Amendments.

Benjamin Franklin spoke of the book in letters. He DONATED one to the University of Virginia I believe. What’s more, Franklin was FLUENT in French. Very very fluent.

Rogers, the evidence supporting my claim, the historical evidence, is not only mounting, its flat out huge. More and more you are looking like you are literally tilting at a windmill.

Your whole argument is that the Founders didn’t rely on Vattel... in one guise or another, that’s normal for you. I wonder, when you are confronted by evidence in letters from Franklin, John Jay and others, that these men not only knew Vattel’s work, but studied it and used it as a guide and a frame of reference. Sorry but there it is.

The ONLY body which can make a ruling on the specific meaning of the constitution, is SCOTUS. You see, WKA is NOT important for the case, or the details OF the case. It is important that it made the DISTINCTION between Citizen, and Natural Born Citizen. It did not define the distinction.

That is why WKA is important. No other reason really. Its a dot on the chain of evidence.

That chain is getting longer by the day as more and more archival documents are found and read.

~~Man, the smoke, mirrors and obfuscation of the simplest facts gets SO annoying at times.