Posted on 09/10/2010 2:10:45 PM PDT by nickcarraway
I remember growing up in a conservative movement that, reacting to the rampant permissiveness of the 1960s and '70s, stressed the virtue of civility. Sure, you have the right to flagrantly offend your neighbors and your community. But should you? Conservatism used to answer "no."
It was one of the cultural demarcations between the right and the left. If you were on the right, you generally thought it unacceptable to excuse boorish behavior with the utterance, "but it's my constitutional right!" Conservatives understood that self-restraint reduced the pressure for government-imposed restraint. We understood that with our civil rights came civic responsibilities. We understood that the United States of America was a land of tremendous religious, ethnic, and cultural diversity and that the peaceful coexistence of all of these people of such varying backgrounds and beliefs required tolerance, and tolerance meant treating others as you would have them treat you. In short, the republic itself relied upon civility.
Most conservatives still get this, I think. But sometimes I wonder how much the self-indulgence of the left has seduced our side. In the last few days, we've seen many on the right come out in defense of a proposal that once would have been almost universally considered indefensible, at least on the right -- the burning of hundreds of Korans in a deliberate attempt to anger and provoke Muslims around the world.
How can we condemn the constant and never-ending anti-Christian provocations of the radical, secular left and then rise to Terry Jones' defense on the lame excuse that he has the right to free expression? Or worse, that not going through with his planned incitement amounts to somehow giving in to the terrorists? No, it doesn't. It amounts to a belated display of common decency.
(Excerpt) Read more at spectator.org ...
What I'd really find valuable, would be knowing one or a few Muslims well enough to get their honest take on this stuff. But the chance of that happening seems vanishingly remote. I feel the lack of that.
I know a few middle-of-the-road Muslims. They’re fine. Normal American types. Happy to be friends with them, have them as neighbors, etc.
The problem is that world-wide, a large minority of Muslims believe they should kill me upon meeting me (I’m Jewish). These radicals run the religion. They are in the leadership positions. They steer their communities. They interpret their faith strictly, and strictly speaking, thier faith obligates them to kill me.
So, like Nazis being a minority of Germans, it’s kinda hard to have good friends who are German, knowing that the Nazis want you all dead.
Here’s a Muslim’s friendly reply to some of my points about the First Amendment rights of the Pastor to burn a Koran:
(Uncle Miltie) “needs his fingers chopped off u keep ur dirty opinions 2 urself this dum piece of horse shit. Dnt realise wat he chattin eat shit and die!!!”
Just quoting.
I also lived through that having been born in 1948. I saw it a little differently. Though I disagreed with what was going on and wanted nothing to do with it I also wanted my freedom so had to allow theirs.
Then there is this. This country is not even close to the country we lived in back then. It’s a totally different world. The threat of Islam cannot even be compared to the threat of someone wanting to burn their bra or have a concert in a field doing whatever.
>> We are not facing a short-term situation, but an existential threat from a mindset that works not in days, weeks or months but CENTURIES.<<
Don’t rely on that long term thingy so much any more. They are working under a different timetable now. They are also focused on the 2012 date. They need to eliminate all non Muslims for their paradise to happen. Their belief is that they are the ones who determine when paradise happens, not God like we do. That’s why things seem to be accelerating so fast now.
I don't believe that for a second.
Exactly, well-put.
We are superior to them in every possible way--from our technology to our manners. Their ONLY hope in defeating us is to bring us down to their level. Sorry, I'm not interested in helping them. I'd rather continue doing what drives them absolutely insane with hate--being the nation they want destroyed because of our beliefs and how we live our lives.
We get to beourselves,and as a bonus, we make them crazy.
>>I don’t believe that for a second.<<
You don’t have to.
Civilization is a precursor to civility, and we’re in the process of surrendering ours.
Of course but in this case it did a good job of showing the hypocracy of both the Muslims and the US government.
I expected opinion among its readers to be about evenly split between those disputing, and those agreeing with Kline, who echoes the sentiments of people I respect such as Mark Levin, Palin, Petraeus, etc., etc. (not to mention people for whom I have contempt, such as Obama and Hillary).
To my great surprise, it's about 9 to one against Kline. Someone asks one of Kline's defenders if it the Boston Tea Party was "civil."
About three quarters of the way down, it finally dawned on me that burning Korans is quite civil, as was the Boston Tea Party. Now, if we were talking about burning Muslims or if the Boston Tea Party had been about throwing English tax collectors into the harbor to drown, that would have been uncivil.
Wow. It’ a shame that Obama has coopted so many conservatives without the knowing it.
No, it’s just that most of us realize we are in a real war for our very freedom. This is the catalyst for many to say NO MORE! People have been shell shocked since 1/20/09 from realizing that we have a traitor in the WH who said if an ill wind blows he will side with the muslims. The GZM was the last slap in the face. Zer0 has made it clear he wants that middle finger to the dead of 9/11 built while lecturing those who disagree as being islamaphobic.
This political act is something that has resonated with a lot of people, not the actual burning of the koran, but because someone who had the backbone to say enough. Do you think the founding fathers were civilized pantywaists?
I think there are plenty areas to make a stand for that aren’t stupid distractions and wastes of time. It’s amazing the other side can channel so many people into doing what they want and what benefits them.
No, they were intelligent, civilized men of character, who could be warriors if they had to be. They weren't whiny, immature, easily manipulative babies, like the koran-burners.
I would gladly drive an 18 wheeler flatbed with a hundred stakes on it all having a boars head, pigs head and maybe a roadkill dog or two around as many mosques I can find.
And they would all have an authentic Koran in their mouth.
The real issue is that this is a first amendment issue more than anything. You don’t have to agree with the act but you better be willing to fight for that person’s rights or we aren’t as free as you think. The way the administration has acted isn’t a good thing regarding the free speech issue. Intimidation by the government isn’t a good sign here.
As far as civility goes, well part of the reason we are stuck with zer0, Reid, and Pelosi at the helm is due to the “civil” R’s not fighting when they needed to fight. Civility cost us the House, Senate and WH. Remember McCain’s words, “we don’t need to be afraid of zer0”?
And when they win...he can come back to his REAL conservative desk and chair, and write his civilized columns again.
Having read your posts, I don't find that odd; I rather expected it, with all respect.
What I'd really find valuable, would be knowing one or a few Muslims well enough to get their honest take on this stuff. But the chance of that happening seems vanishingly remote ....
Not so remote if you were willing to make some temporary changes to embark on an adventure. Come rent an apartment in Glendale, California, and live there for a few months. Walk the streets of the city (it's mostly a pretty nice place), patronize the local stores, observe your neighbors, a huge percentage of whom will be Middle Easterners, and while many will be Christians, others will be Muslims. You will know right away which is which. The Christians are respectful, friendly, and hospitable.
Stand in line at a liquor/produce store that is eight or nine people long, and watch as a sullen young Middle Eastern man who is Muslim brazenly cuts in front of the elderly woman in front of you. He stays there until I and a few others get "uncivil" in our attitudes and force him to the back of the line.
Watch two ME Muslim men with a little boy of about six in a mall store, where the little boy picks up and blows on a half dozen toy horns with no attempt of the men to stop him; when the storekeeper (an Anglo woman, clearly American) tells the men that their little boy is acting out of line and getting his germs all over the horns, the Muslim men, immigrants to MY America, the America my father fought for and might have died for, NEVER look her in the eye. Women are beneath that (as I learned as a resident of Glendale for five years). Instead the two men look away, brush off her complaints as so much bullsh*t, and rudely ignore her (great example they're setting for the little boy).
Walk down a sidewalk on an overpass over the freeway, the overpass being on a busy street; you are a lone woman walking one direction dressed as if you're out for exercise, and coming the other way are two men dressed in business attire, deep in converstation. As an woman raised in a civil Judeo-Christian society, you assume that, as the sidewalk is not wide enough to accommodate three abreast, one of the gentleman will very briefly pause in his stride and step aside to let you pass, and that will be that.
But if they're Muslims, they will make no eye contact, nor make any moves to accommodate you. If if means forcing you out onto the busy street (as it did in my case), tough luck.
Yes, you should know some Muslims. Go move into a neighborhood they've taken over.
And again, tell me which is more civil: burning a mere symbol, paper, as a warning now, or to engage in bloodshed later because your enemy mistook your civility of NOT burning mere paper for cowardice?
Bloodshed is not, but failing to burn books today out of concern for being "civil" may lead to double the bloodshed tomorrow.
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