Posted on 09/07/2010 8:01:18 PM PDT by Coleus
A homeowner who grabbed a rifle from his house and fired warning shots in a confrontation with a group of men on his lawn faces criminal charges, but his family said he was defending his home from a threatening mass of strangers.
George Grier, 30, fired rounds into the ground and air from an assault-style rifle after arguing with a large group of men gathered outside his Long Island home Sunday evening, Nassau County police said Monday. No one was hurt.
His sister, Caprice Rines, said Grier feared for the safety of his wife and two small children when about 20 men converged on his Uniondale lawn after two of them began quarreling. He didn't know the men, who ignored his requests to leave and kept approaching the house, she said.
Put me on the jury.
This guy’s mistake was going outside.
1) Call police.
2) Close and lock all doors and windows.
3) Wait.
4) If perps enter,shoot to kill.
Never go outside with a weapon in the case of home defence.
Regards,
GtG
I am sure myth busters may have to do this but I think a 7.62 round shot “in the air” would not do much more harm that taking that same bullet and throwing it as hard as you can at someone.
Think terminal velocity. If it was fired at less than a 45 degree arc than it would have been dangerous.
to imagine terminal velocity of an object, you can imagine driving a car and having that object(a bullet) suspended on a string outside the window. Now drive the car fast enough to have that object on a string reach a 45 degree angle(fudging for the string drag) and you have the terminal velocity for that object.
A paper cups terminal velocity might be 10 MPH and a penny’s terminal velocity might be 30 MPH. A tumbling bullet? I don’t know.
I am guessing it would be about as fast as a MLB pitcher could throw it and it would suck to get hit by it but I don’t think it would be deadly, unless it hit you in the eye and if that happened it just wasn’t your day.
Not much...FRiend.
You: “I guess you didn’t read the article. Read before posting.”
Article: “George Grier, 30, fired rounds into the ground and air “
I read the article, and YOU need to read before criticizing someone else.
A San Antonio man was shot 13 times. As police investigated, gangs began to fight. As arrests commenced, rioting broke out in the neighborhood. I saw this reported on broadcast tv last night.
Dunno about that. Did they get off his lawn and leave him and his family alone?
That was what he was trying to accomplish, wasn't it?
No one died. No one was hurt. They left him alone. Seems like an effective negotiation strategy to me.
And in general ... if your house is being surrounded by 10-20 gang members, the last thing you want to do is to attract their attention in a hostile way. It might be a manly thing to do, but tactically it is unwise. Most likely they don't even know or care about your existence. You gain nothing by revealing yourself and your capabilities. Negotiations with gangs are unlikely anyway; the only people you can negotiate with are probably nice enough that you don't need to.
So from my "monday morning quarterback" POV, the best plan of action for him would be to call the police, then to hunker down at the house, distribute weapons and ammo to all able family members and allocate them to cover doors and windows. If any of these entry points is breached by criminals then the defenders have clear legal right to use deadly force.
“I am sure myth busters may have to do this but I think a 7.62 round shot “in the air” would not do much more harm that taking that same bullet and throwing it as hard as you can at someone.”
Wrong. They can kill when they come down unless you manage a perfect 90 deg into the air shot.
It's all fun and games - till the cops show up.....
What the guy did was dumb — but I’m not sure it should be considered illegal. Oh, it may be on the books up North, but it probably shouldn’t be.
If someone was on my lawn who shouldn’t be, I’d politely ask them to leave. If they refused, I’d call the police and remain inside — with my weapons loaded and ready — until they arrived. If the trouble-makers left after the police gave them notice, so be it.
If the trouble-makers returned later, I would notify the police again, and I would tell the police that there would not be a third call — this time they’d better STAY gone and not TRESPASS on my property again (trespassing is a CRIME and CAN be prosecuted). I would then expect the Police to come and either run off the trouble-makers with assurances they would never return, or otherwise arrest them if they got smart.
If they returned again, someone would be picking up trach from my lawn. It runs in the family though. My Grandpa had to shoot a man for trespassing in his front yard, and my Dad had to put a brick thru the truck door of a guy who was joy-riding in our front yard when I was a kid. The cops got him later — after a friend did a little detective work the cops wouldn’t have bothered to do.
Depending on the police to defend your property is foolish — but so is acting rashly and tossing bullets around without clear provocation and obvious danger to life and property. Use common sense — if you’re not stupid, you’ll likely be okay — or at least make correct decisions if you’re confronted with bad situations.
If one is going to have a deadly force weapon, one had better learn the stupid laws that apply to its use.
The sad thing is that the laws on one jurisdiction may be totally different in another, so you have to know the laws in the places you live, work and travel through or you are likely going to go to jail if you have to use a firearm. Sad, but true fact.
While some places have castle doctrines and no requirement to retreat from danger if you can, other places require you to do everything beyond what a normal human being would consider reasonable before you can “fire a weapon.”
In many jurisdictions that only time you can use deadly force is when your life is in danger or you or someone is in immanent danger of serious physical injury. Unfortunately, some punk yelling that he is going to kill you and your babies, may or may not (depending on the police and DA) be considered enough of a threat that deadly force will be allowed.
Similarly, if you “fire a warning shot” shot to wound or “wing” someone you have just by definition said that your life was NOT in immediate danger, because you just confessed to having time to avoiding shooting to kill (live).
As strange as that sounds, in many many parts of the US, “warning shots” or a statement that you didn't mean to shoot the person, but the gun just went off, will land you immediately in jail!
From the DA’s perspective, deadly force wasn't required (because even though it was a gang shouting they were going to kill him and his babies they were not brandishing weapons or “attacking him”) and the homeowner escalated the confrontation by brandishing a deadly force weapon. Based on the absurd language of the law, the homeowner created a deadly force confrontation, when there wasn't one yet.
OK, I know you are thinking that the above doesn't make sense or isn't a common sense approach. You are right, it isn't, but it is the LAW. The LAW is what it is and if you own a firearm, you better learn it if you want to stay out of jail.
Conversely, if you feel that your life is really in danger, but you will go to jail, then use your firearm and tell folks you were afraid for your life.
The homeowner, would have had a better chance of staying out of jail, if he yelled that he was afraid for his life, retreated a few steps and then shot a couple dozen of the gang member. While that many not seem sensible, it is the way the law works. There is “never” a “legal” reason to fire a warning shot, there maybe moral and ethical reasons, but never a legal one.
You could be right, I am just thinking this out under the influence and even then it doesn’t seem like a good idea.
But I was thinking that when someone fires a warking shot in the air it is generally more close to 90 degrees than 45 and that the bullet will eventually lose the spin and start to tumble making it have more drag than a bullet that is rotating from the spin of the barrel.
I might have been confusing this with the drop a penny from a skyscraper mind game.
I'm unsure if the police can even technically fulfill this request, especially if the trespassers are playing a game with you. It takes time for the police to show up, and it's not a crime to be on a sidewalk. It takes one second to step from your lawn to the public sidewalk. The police may have no obvious reason to arrest these individuals. Also if you join "the game" with the gang, the gang has more skills and more interest in that game than you do.
Ultimately a "one man vs. a hundred" situation has no good solution. You may have two gang members arrested, and next week receive a Molotov cocktail in the window when you are at work - a gift from the rest of the gang. They'd love that. If you think it's surrender, it's not - it's simply the fact that your army is much smaller than the other army. Per Sun Tsu, you should avoid fight in such a situation because you can't win. And that's why gangs proliferate - because they are better armies than the police and the citizens (considering laws of self-defense etc.)
Another concern is that the police don't take ultimatums. They don't care how many times you are bothered - one or a thousand. If you attack someone outside your house it doesn't matter to them how often you were baited before. Maybe the judge will take that into account, but the police deals with cold facts.
I can understand sitting tight inside your house if there’s one man threatening to come in. But, with a large group of men swarming the property, I can understand a homeowner wanting to keep them away from the house, instead of waiting for them to try to get inside. It seems he was caught in a situation in which, no matter what he did, he was going to have trouble.
Actually, it seems the more often you have to call the police, the less often the police respond. At least, that has been my experience/observation, after living in several different neighborhoods.
Update on the story: The family is worried about retaliation now:
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/07/uniondale-family-afraid-after-weekend-dispute/
You must allow illegal alien MS-13 gangbangers have their way with you and your family or 0bama will personally order the DoJ to prosecute you. Please donate generously to the DNC before the bangers rob you. Thank you.
Your premises are wrong — unless fired exactly 90* into the air, a falling bullet retains it's spiraling motion (i.e. it will not “tumble”). Also, lead is denser than copper, and a bullet is more aerodynamic (i.e. pointy-ended) than a penny.
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