Posted on 07/13/2010 10:24:53 AM PDT by Stayfrosty
BELFAST, Northern Ireland (AP) — Northern Ireland leaders condemned Irish nationalist rioters Tuesday who wounded 82 police officers during two nights of street clashes sparked by the province's annual parades by the British Protestant majority.
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
It was a sarcastic comment.
Care to actually respond to my point?.
‘Irrelevant. Your anecdotal info is worth zilch.’
I beg to differ. Having actually been to a country and met its people and seen its culture gives one a much greater understanding of the people and culture than dry facts, notions and ideas from a vantage point far away.
You wrote:
“Care to actually respond to my point?.”
You didn’t present anything worth responding to.
You wrote:
“I beg to differ.”
It doesn’t matter if you do.
” Having actually been to a country and met its people and seen its culture gives one a much greater understanding of the people and culture than dry facts, notions and ideas from a vantage point far away.”
Not according to the people themselves.
The two of you are shouting at each other from distant mountain-tops. How about calling it a day and finding other mountains to climb? (oh, and I do have a private view about which is the finer hill. Even Munro left one top unbagged).
I apparently know more than you - that seems clear,p> No, I disagree with you. People who disagree with you do not neccesarily and automatically know less.
- and apparently you care about what I think about Ireland because you keep posting to me.
No, the point of my statement was not whether I care about you think - it was in opposition to your statement that you didnt care less what I thought about a particular political issue. The point being that if you simply dismiss other peoples passionately held viewpoints, why should they not do the same to you? You're not stupid Vlad - I can't believe you don't understand what I was saying.
No relaxation solved the problems. If they did, you would not be having this conversation.
Well with a mindset like that they never are going to. Nothing but total victory will suffice. Unfortunately, the problem with that kind of thinking is that "total victory" is never achieved.
No. There was a problem in Ireland with the British occupation.
You keep saying British occupation. Ireland was part of Britain, therefore there were British soldiers there. There are British soldiers all over Britain. Is there a problem with that
Now there isn’t. For there are no British soldiers in Ireland except for the North (where the other problems continue).
Thats a nonsensical argument! I know the Irish nationalists want the British out. The problem is that the unionists want them IN.
Thus, a problem that began centuries ago, and continued for centuries, has ended COMPLETELY in 26 counties of Ireland. Do you see how that works? Problems can be ended. They cannot be ended when people pretend they don’t exist.
Its not a question of pretending they dont exist. Its forward thinking of what happens when the "problem" is ended. There's not much point if another worse problem is created instead.
What you posted doesn’t even come close to what you are suggesting.
Actually though, I think it does. You are saying that the "invaders" can just simply go to England Scotland or Wales if they want to stay British. But the Unionists of today are not invaders. Their ancestors were (or were if you accept that particularly extreme example of what happened as being true) but they aren't. You are lumping them in with something that happened 400 years back. You extol the virtues of being Irish, but deny them the right to call themselves British. Of course they are going to fight against that. Wouldnt you?
Then taht proves what I said is correct.
No, it proves that most people just want to get on with their lives in peace, not in a land where there are bombings, assassinations, revenge killings and constant violence. They've left because they have been driven out, not because they want to go. No wonder the demographics are changing.
“If an IRA bad actor murders civilians in pursuit of his policy goals and is rightly labeled a terrorist how does wearing a uniform exempt one from the same label?”
Because for the men in uniform civilian deaths are the exceptions that proves the rule that they don’t by design set out to cause mass death and injury in civilian areas and against civilians. The civilian terror is the negative product of some problem of leadership.
For the terrorist, the death and injury of civilians IS the design, and is an direct and entirely predictable result of placing bombs in areas such as shopping areas that are populated entirely by civilians.
You are a former soldier and you need me to tell you this ? Really ?
Ditto.
OK so imagine the scenario where Northern Ireland wakes up one morning and finds itself a part of Eire.
Its Garda not the PSNI and the Irish Army and not the British who are on the ground.
What do think is going to happen ?
So my points regarding Irish identity and its history from O Connell onwards and the rejection of an United Ireland by NI Catholics were not worth responding to?.
You wrote:
“how are you ever going to know any differently?”
Then the best thing to do is solve it definitively forever. Reunite Ireland. Many people consider that to be the inevitable outcome anyway.
“No, I disagree with you. People who disagree with you do not neccesarily and automatically know less.”
No, they don’t. In this case, that is the case, however.
“No, the point of my statement was not whether I care about you think - it was in opposition to your statement that you didnt care less what I thought about a particular political issue. The point being that if you simply dismiss other peoples passionately held viewpoints, why should they not do the same to you?”
Go ahead and dismiss my “passionately held viewpoints”. I wouldn’t worry about it in the least.
“You’re not stupid Vlad - I can’t believe you don’t understand what I was saying.”
I do understand - I understand that what you say doesn’t matter. This is not a personal issue for me in the least.
“Well with a mindset like that they never are going to. Nothing but total victory will suffice. Unfortunately, the problem with that kind of thinking is that “total victory” is never achieved.”
Actually I think in the real world total victory is often achieved.
“You keep saying British occupation. Ireland was part of Britain, therefore there were British soldiers there.”
Did the people of Ireland consider themselves British? How about India? Did they feel occupied even though they were part of the British Empire?
“There are British soldiers all over Britain. Is there a problem with that”
For the Irish in Ireland, when the British were there, yes.
“Thats a nonsensical argument! I know the Irish nationalists want the British out. The problem is that the unionists want them IN.”
Nothing was nonsensical about my argument. Where is the problem? In the North. To say that it doesn’t matter that the British were still occupying the North just recently is nonsensical since that is one of the main issues.
“Its not a question of pretending they dont exist. Its forward thinking of what happens when the “problem” is ended. There’s not much point if another worse problem is created instead.”
What worse problem? Was there a worse problem in the South when the British army left? No. Even the Irish civil war was not worse than the British occupation because that included tyranny and degradation. What happened that was “worse” when the British left America? Oh, right. Nothing.
“Actually though, I think it does. You are saying that the “invaders” can just simply go to England Scotland or Wales if they want to stay British. But the Unionists of today are not invaders.”
You’re absolutely right. I should have said “descendents of invaders who still cherish the memory of slaughtering and oppressing innocent Irish”. Sorry, my mistake.
“You extol the virtues of being Irish, but deny them the right to call themselves British.”
I never claimed there was a virtue of being Irish - nor would I. I also never denied anyone any right to call themselves British. Call yourself a Martian for all I care. The point is that most of them DON’T WANT TO CALL THEMSELVES BRITISH.
“Of course they are going to fight against that. Wouldnt you?”
I don’t even know what you’re saying.
“No, it proves that most people just want to get on with their lives in peace, not in a land where there are bombings, assassinations, revenge killings and constant violence. They’ve left because they have been driven out, not because they want to go. No wonder the demographics are changing.”
They were not driven out. The British army and RUC were there to protect them. Few died in 30 years of violence. While the Protestants can easily burn down Irish Catholic homes and attack Catholic school girls with impunity, Catholics really aren’t attacking the Protestants in any significant way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_dispute
Speaking of targeting women and children:
You wrote:
“OK so imagine the scenario where Northern Ireland wakes up one morning and finds itself a part of Eire.”
Impossible. It will take years for the handing over of the territory. It would be much like what happened between the UK and China over Hong Kong. Years of talks, an agreement well ahead of time, plenty of time to sort out what everyone would do, etc.
“Its Garda not the PSNI and the Irish Army and not the British who are on the ground.”
Okay.
“What do think is going to happen ?”
Those Unionists not willing to stay will pick up and move long before the handing over. Most unionist hotheads with murder on their mind will also decide to leave because they know they will have backing from no nation or major power on earth to conduct any major terrorist campaigns. Those few diehards with a death wish will stay and soon be moped up since the official power of the state - both the UK and Ireland - will be against them with no hope of victory or even long term survival as terrorists in Ireland. There would also be an economic downturn and mass migration from other countries. A certainly more diverse and perhaps economically more powerful Ireland would ultimately result. And after a few years there would be no terrorist violence to speak of. In other words, Ireland would be better off in some ways than it has been in centuries: united and free.
You wrote:
“So my points regarding Irish identity and its history from O Connell onwards and the rejection of an United Ireland by NI Catholics were not worth responding to?.”
They can’t be - since you denigrated your own source by calling it a wikipedia poll. See how that works?
Yes I'm a former soldier and you are a fool. The notion that a uniform exempts one from bad motives and acts is a fool's notion. Japanese soldiers terrorized Korean and Chineses civilians alike. Iraqi soldiers terrorized any civilian speaking out against Hussein. Soviet soldiers terrorized entire nations in Eatern Europe. German soldiers terrorized civilians of Jewish ancestry. And one Bloody Sunday British Paras terrorized civilians in Ireland.
Were you sleeping during history class and boot camp?
My reference as explained was a sarcatic aside to your lack of interaction with the actual people of NI, and that whilst you have never been there, I have. It was a reference to book knowledge of an issue as opposed to having on the ground knowledge of an issue.
And why use the ‘wikipedia argumen’t to refuse to discuss my first point about Irish identity, O Connell, Ulster identity?. My first point has no reference whatsoever to polls, so reply to it.
What a pity that people don't work that way.
Ireland after the immediate setting up of the Irish Free State was anything but a happy and economically secure place. Admittedly there was a major worldwide economic downturn at the time but Ireland certainly suffered more than most.
All of those events occured later on in "the troubles", when the IRA had moved from being a purely nationalist movement to one that was infiltrated and controlled by the hard marxist left (a process commies are particularly adept at).
Anecdotal evidence is the main driving force for all political opinion in NI.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.