Naturels translated to natural born by the Founders. July 1781“I’m curious how Vattel managed to write anything after the Constitution when he died on December 28, 1767.”
The early English translations simply inserted, without translation, the French word “Indigenes”. A translation made after the Constitution was written replaced it with NBC.
From a post on another thread:
El Gato wrote to me earlier, arguing,
“He used two words, “Naturels” and “Indigenes”. The Royal Dictionary from near the period in question, indicates that the two words may *both* be translated as “naturals”, but Naturels may also be translated as “natives”. The way they are used in both the original French and the way the translated terms are used, it’s clear they are being used as synonyms. Thus natives and naturals, but used to refer to the “citoyn” or “citizen” in the previous sentence. Thus “natives or natural born citizens is not a bad translation. It’s certainly better than the one which left “indigenes” untranslated. When it was finally translated in the 1793 edition, it was not translates as “indignious” but, as one would expect from the dictionary, as “natural” born. Our founders did not need the earlier translation. They could read the original French for themselves. Dr. Franklin was particularly adept in French, having found it useful with the French ladies, some of whom were quite well educated, when he was representing the “rebels” there.”
I replied:
Indigenous is defined as
“1. originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country; native (often fol. by to): the plants indigenous to Canada; the indigenous peoples of southern Africa.
2. innate; inherent; natural (usually fol. by to): feelings indigenous to human beings.”
Its derivation is...
“1640–50; < L indigen(a) native, original inhabitant (indi-, by-form of in- in-2 (cf. indagate) + -gena, deriv. from base of gignere to bring into being; cf. genital, genitor) + -ous”
Also: “—Synonyms 1. autochthonous, aboriginal, natural.”
So I think a translation of “the native, or indigenous person” is vastly superior to “the native, or natural born citizen” - and certainly reject the idea that NBC is the definitive translation, for legal purposes, of a document that makes one reference to “Indigenes”.
Naturels translated to natural born by the Founders. July 1781Of course you do. But the 1793/97 translator did not agree with you.
Nor did whomever translated the July 27, 1781 pages of the Journals of the Continental Congress, where "naturels" is translated as "natural born" modifying sujets (subjects). (the agreement was with the French who had a King at the time)
You're right. I don't see how the Founders who were reading Law of Nations when the Constitution was being written, either in French or an early translation, would get "natural born citizen" from the text. It's much more likely to me that the phrase is adopted from common law of England, which I believe is what the Supreme Court has already said.
FWIW, your definitions are of the English word indigenous. While I assume this definition is quite similar to the equivalent word in French, there may be shades of meaning that vary.
Since we’re dealing with shades of meaning here, that could be pretty important.
I agree with you that using Vattel as a primary argument for the legal definition of NBC is a pretty weak reed.
I have yet to see any convincing argument that NBC means “citizen at birth” as opposed to “naturalized citizen.” If so, its specific parameters would change as the definition of citizen at birth changed, notably with the 14th Amendment.