Posted on 05/07/2010 6:30:04 PM PDT by USALiberty
Former Alaska governor on National Day of Prayer controversy.
(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...
“he is the creator of all the goo in the universe”
...that should be all the GOOD in the universe.
I give you evidence of the Biblically-based doctrines and history of the Christian-principled United States which you reject out of hand. The Declaration of Independence, the foundational ideas for the U.S. Constitution states: "all men are...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." Belief in God is at the very core of American values, culture, and Constitution.
Obviously an atheist cannot adhere to these views but this Christian nation of our allows you to do so.
The application of critical thinking skills, and the expectation that claims be backed up by independently verifiable evidence
Yet you reject out of hand the evidence of atheistic Communism leading to tyranny and death.
I agree. Alright, why did you choose to give up your faith?
I have told no lies.
I do not think you have lied, I basically stated Atheist are being duped by a lie. We all fall prey, though. Once I read your answer as to why you have become an atheist, I'll explain what I mean by you being duped.
“I do not think you have lied, I basically stated Atheist are being duped by a lie. We all fall prey, though. Once I read your answer as to why you have become an atheist, I’ll explain what I mean by you being duped.”
Simply because the claim that god exists isn’t supported by independently verifiable evidence. That’s it.
Alright. What "verifiable evidence" do you need to see to convince you God exist?
Atheist are duped into a lie perpetrated by satan or their self interest which basically cods ones into illogically discounting their spiritual sense.
“Alright. What “verifiable evidence” do you need to see to convince you God exist?”
I’m prepared to look at whatever evidence the claimant is willing to put forward.
You do know there are people in this world who deny the holocaust ever happen? There is eye witness accounts, and plenty of historical evidence, but yet some still deny it ever occurred.
This is why, and I'll ask you again, what specific evidence do you need to see and verify?
I would like to make a distinction here. Do you feel it necessary to believe in a theory such as say, Gravity or is that evidence just empirical and no belief is necessary?
“You do know there are people in this world who deny the holocaust ever happen? There is eye witness accounts, and plenty of historical evidence, but yet some still deny it ever occurred.”
Yeah, I know. They deny what the overwhelming evidence says.
“This is why, and I’ll ask you again, what specific evidence do you need to see and verify?”
Anything that’s independently verifiable, I can’t be more specific than that. I’m not making the claim/assertion that god exists so I don’t know what evidence if any is in the possession of those that do.
“I would like to make a distinction here. Do you feel it necessary to believe in a theory such as say, Gravity or is that evidence just empirical and no belief is necessary?”
Empirical evidence with no faith necessary. The question of whether god exists is so incredibly important, and the implications of accepting that god exists are so significant that I would want very rigorous, testable, independently verifiable evidence that removes any (or at least most) room for doubt. otherwise I’m being asked to accept a claim that will impact on my whole life without being able to justify the validity of the claim.
Put it this way. The claim that god exists is more significant than the claim that anthropogenic global warming exists, but we reject the claim of agw on the basis that none of the evidence for it stands up to scrutiny, so how can we accept the claim that god exists without at least asking for good, solid evidence that will stand up to rigorous scrutiny?
My whole point is this - It does not matter what evidence is provided, as a Christian, you chose to ignore the "verifiable evidence" which is already there. As the holocaust deniers, your choice to "not believe" is based on emotional impracticality in the face of "overwhelming evidence." Your non belief foundation centers around the schism between self and selfless. In order to "see" or in your term "verify" God, you have to sacrifice your "self." This is the condition in which one must go through to "verify the evidence."
So, because by definition FAITH/BELIEF is required to see God, it is the one condition which must be integrated for the evidence to manifest. If you do not cross the threshold, you can not prove God. You choose to be a denier of the threshold.
Just as in science, if you ignore the conditional processes to verify the evidence you will never see the proof either as a layman, or a scientist.
I have some other questions for you which might be too personal a thing for you to answer, so I'll understand and respect your refusal if you don't answer them.
Because of all the misuse throughout history of people claiming to do certain vicious and murderous acts in God's name, did this have an impact on why you decided to deny God's existence? If not, have you ever personally sought verifiable evidence of God? If so, how?
” I’m not making the claim/assertion that god exists so I don’t know what evidence if any is in the possession of those that do.
My whole point is this - It does not matter what evidence is provided, as a Christian, you chose to ignore the “verifiable evidence” which is already there.”
What verifiable evidence are you referring to? it seems that you’ve already decided that I have rejected your evidence but you haven’t presented any yet.
“In order to “see” or in your term “verify” God, you have to sacrifice your “self.” This is the condition in which one must go through to “verify the evidence.”
Again, what evidence are you referring to?
“So, because by definition FAITH/BELIEF is required to see God, it is the one condition which must be integrated for the evidence to manifest. If you do not cross the threshold, you can not prove God. You choose to be a denier of the threshold.”
That sounds like special pleading. If the evidence stands up to scrutiny then no faith is required. No faith is required to accept the claim that the holocaust did in fact happen, the evidence is there for all to see. No faith is required to show that the theory of gravity holds true, it is demonstrable and the observations it is based on are independently verifiable. I ask no more (or less) for the claim that god exists.
“Just as in science, if you ignore the conditional processes to verify the evidence you will never see the proof either as a layman, or a scientist.”
What conditional processes and what evidence? you’ll need to be a little more specific.
“I have some other questions for you which might be too personal a thing for you to answer, so I’ll understand and respect your refusal if you don’t answer them.”
No problem, happy to discuss it.
“Because of all the misuse throughout history of people claiming to do certain vicious and murderous acts in God’s name, did this have an impact on why you decided to deny God’s existence?”
Not at all, and let me be very clear that I have never denied the existence of god. I am open to the possibility that god does in fact exist, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation. However, I do can not accept such a significant claim without evidence.
“If not, have you ever personally sought verifiable evidence of God? If so, how?”
I started asking questions about god since about the age of 12 or 13. At first of my teachers (catholic school), the brothers of St.Patrick, who ran the school, and of my priest. I have never received an answer that doesn’t involve a false syllogism, circular arguments, or additional unsupported claims. Occasionally I was disciplined for even daring to ask such questions, fortunately that was a rare occurrence. Usually I was expected to just accept what was said on face value, or dismissed as just being ‘difficult’. I have never stopped asking.
If you don’t mind me asking, on what do you base your own acceptance of the claim that god exists? how have you confirmed it to be true to your satisfaction?
Let's be specific here - You want verifiable evidence provided without a requirement of faith. That can not happen according to the word. (I don't make up these rules. God does. ;-)) Since we are outside the threshold, like I said, you can not truly see this evidence because it does not exist to my knowledge on just a human logic level. Faith is required. I do not produce the evidence because I do not think there is any, but the holy spirit introduces the evidence. I could tell you about Genesis 5. I could show historical sites. I can list inscriptions. The evidence for God is all around us. The only verifiable evidence manifest itself when you have faith as far as I know. People saw him and denied him. But until they believed in who he was, he did not show himself. So, do I have any evidence which is verifiable God exist, no. I just have logical conclusions. Besides you can see all the evidence you want, ask him! (I don't write that to be flippant, just my realistic personal experience.)
That sounds like special pleading. If the evidence stands up to scrutiny then no faith is required.
I understand what you think, and it even makes logical sense, but YES, it does require faith. Again, if you don't follow the proper process, how can you expect to see results? Again, this is what is written in God's word and my experience bares it out.
What conditional processes and what evidence? you’ll need to be a little more specific.
I'm pointing to faith and belief here. I just want to make sure you understand what I'm saying. It's backwards from the way you think it should be to satisfy your prescription for verifiable evidence. Very plainly put, the process is you have to "believe" before the evidence manifest itself in your experience. And yes, it's a choice you make. You know why? Because God wants a totally FREE WILL choice from you. He never treats you like a puppet on a string.
Occasionally I was disciplined for even daring to ask such questions, fortunately that was a rare occurrence.
Yeah, I would have problems with that too. If God gives you free will he certainly gives you the freedom to question. In fact, I think he encourages it!!
...on what do you base your own acceptance of the claim that god exists? how have you confirmed it to be true to your satisfaction?
Now see, you know the verse - "Be ready to give a reason for the hope that is within," this is definitely one of those moments! Thanks for asking. The only thing I can do here, with anyone who questions the validity of God is relay my personal experience. Very simply, I wanted to know the truth...and The Truth showed up. There is absolute no reason for me NOT to believe God is who he says he is. I wanted to know the truth about life and why we're here. Logically, the bible says, here's God, this is what he expects, and he gives you all the free will in the world to chose him. I simply believe because it makes sense, and everything in God's word is right, just, logical, and loving. Man can twist the words all he wants into some convoluted precept, but the purity of the word always reigns.
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