Posted on 05/07/2010 6:55:21 AM PDT by marktwain
Today's question:
Should people on the federal terrorism watch list be blocked from buying firearms and explosives? Why or why not?
Background reading here.
David Schanzer, director of the Triangle Center on Terrorism and Homeland Security, sai It is difficult to conceive of a reason why individuals who have raised sufficient level of suspicion to put them on the no-fly list should have an unlimited right to buy a firearms and explosives. The right to travel and the right to bear arms are both are constitutionally protected, but far from absolute.
John M. Snyder, Public Affairs Director of Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms, said:
While promoters of this idea agree with legislation enabling the Attorney General in this regard, they generally fail to inform the public about the nature of the list itself.
To a large extent, the list is a mystery. There really has not been a lot of information revealed about it. Who is on it? Why? Who puts one on it? How does one get his or her name placed on it? How does one get off it? Can a government official place on it the names of men and women considered unfriendly to or unsupportive of the government official? Can a journalist or anyone considered unfriendly to or unsupportive of a government official or policy be placed on it? Can this happen without the subject's knowledge?
Specifically, could anyone who supports the individual Second Amendment civil right to keep and bear arms be placed on it? Could one who is completing his or her military service, considered suspect last year in a Department of Homeland Security assessment document, be placed on it? Could one who supports, or opposes, any legislative program be placed on it?
(Excerpt) Read more at thehill.com ...
Who, by the way, was on a watchlist since 1999, according to Rush, and still bought a gun, explosives...propane and gasoline...oh, my...and traveled to and from Pakistan 13 times and still got on a flight at JFK after purchasing a one way ticket with cash. I think we need to do away with “watch” lists and create a “do something about it” list.
Exactly. There’s no due process requirement, and certainly no PUBLIC due process, and no way to correct mistakes. There may be a place for lists like that, but they shouldn’t impose penalties or restrictions on people without that kind of supervision. That’s why it’s called a “watch” list.
The proposal is much, much more than that. The above is merely the “selling point” for the proposed legislation, which bans both buying firearms and explosives and possession of guns as well as making all “instant checks” a permanent record. The “watch” list is much larger than the “no fly list”. I've seen estimates that the “watch list” is about a million people.
“I’m trying to figure out if this is going to deny my right to purchase anymore or require that I register what I already have. There are no NICS checks required for ammo, and if they come knocking asking about my guns, my answer will first be, “Show me your warrant.” When they come back, there will be no words exchanged.”
The proposed legislation criminalizes possession as well as prohibits buying from federally licensed dealers. I believe that your statements on this forum would be probable cause for a no knock swat raid if you were placed on the list and this legislation passed.
Then I'm adamantly opposed, as opposed to just thinking this is simply another useless government boondoggle.
So be it. I am not afraid. I have prayed and know that God will protect me in life and in death. So help me God, I refuse to live as a slave to any man or government.
Violation of due process. This proposed bill is unConstitutional. But, if they want to go down this road, they better be prepared for the unintended consequenses of their actions. This will jeapordize national security in the worst way.
If they get them away from me and wish to prosecute, you’ll see the best impression of a mute ever. I’m tired of this bully tactic BS. Obama needs to be impeached and thrown in Federal prison like YESTERDAY.
I wonder what the percentage of American citizens on the list are now, and how big it is.
Any noncitizen on this list should be in a detention camp already.
You have to catch them first. Just because you have a name doesn't mean that you have them. A great number of these people are likely in other countries.
More About Screening and Watchlists
What is the terrorist watchlist?
The terrorist watchlist is maintained by the Terrorist Screening Center (TSC), which is administered by the FBI, U.S. Department of Justice, in cooperation with the departments of Homeland Security, Defense, State and Treasury, and the Central Intelligence Agency.
Intelligence and law enforcement agencies nominate individuals for the watchlist based on established criteria.
Two subsets of the terrorist watchlist are the “No Fly” list and “Selectee” list:
The “No Fly” list includes individuals who are prohibited from boarding an aircraft. You are NOT on the No Fly list if you receive a boarding pass.
The “Selectee” list includes individuals who must undergo additional security screening before being permitted to board an aircraft.
The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) was created in the wake of 9/11 to strengthen the security of the nation’s transportation systems while ensuring the freedom of movement for people and commerce. One of the ways TSA secures transportation systems is screening airline passengers against the No Fly and Selectee lists.
Customs and Border Protection also screens passengers against the terrorist watchlist before admitting travelers to the United States. As part of the inspection process, CBP officers must verify the identity of travelers, determine their admissibility into the U.S., and otherwise ensure compliance with U.S. laws, including looking for possible terrorists, weapons, controlled substances, and a wide variety of other prohibited and restricted items.
A traveler may be referred to secondary inspection for reasons unrelated to CBP’s priority mission of keeping dangerous goods and dangerous people out of the U.S. For example, clearance difficulties may result from a traveler’s name and/or date of birth residing in state or local law enforcement agency databases. CBP does not have the authority to modify such records and must refer these travelers to secondary inspection.
How do I know if I am on a Government Watchlist?
The U.S. government does not reveal whether a particular person is on or not on a watchlist. If the government revealed this information, terrorist organizations would be able to circumvent the watchlist’s purpose by determining in advance which of their members were likely to be questioned or detained.
http://www.justice.gov/oig/reports/plus/a0816/final.pdf
The FBI’s watchlisting policies were developed internally and
pertain only to the FBI, not to other DOJ components or any external
agencies that are involved in watchlisting matters. The FBI uses several
different methods to accomplish its nominations depending on the source
and type of terrorist information involved.
Nominations of Investigative Subjects
In general, individuals who are subjects of ongoing FBI
counterterrorism investigations are nominated to TSC for inclusion on the
watchlist, including persons who are being preliminarily investigated to
determine if they have links to terrorism. FBI policy requires the responsible
case agent to forward a complete nomination package to the Terrorist
Review and Examination Unit (TREX) in FBI headquarters. This package
should include an initial case opening electronic communication, a copy of a
notice of initiation that is directed to DOJ headquarters, and an FBI watchlist
nomination form.5
For international terrorist nominations, TREX is responsible for
reviewing and approving the nomination. It then forwards the nomination to
NCTC. NCTC performs its review of the nomination and submits it to the
TSC for inclusion in the consolidated terrorist watchlist. In cases of domestic
terrorist nominations, TREX will send the nomination directly to the TSC.
“Violation of due process. This proposed bill is unConstitutional. But, if they want to go down this road, they better be prepared for the unintended consequenses of their actions. This will jeapordize national security in the worst way.”
Due process is already being regularly violated to millions of men every year. It’s called a restraining order which any judge can issue for any reason and can last for an indeternimate period of time. Once issued you HAVE to surrender your guns, ammo, etc and your travel is restricted in that you had better not bump into your ex-wife/GF at the mall or you’ll be going to jail. This just federalizes it and allows a few more people other than jugdes to denigh your rights. Welcome to the slippery slope, Libs AND conservatives love to support things “for the childern” or to “protect women” when all it does is erode our rights and does nothing to protect childern or women.
Agreed, but with the restraining order, there IS a course of action that the accused can take to fight it. Under the national security blanket, there is no way to challange the denial as DOJ has carte blanche to deny you any information on the no fly list.
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