Posted on 05/04/2010 3:52:00 PM PDT by FootBall
Dogubayazit (Turkey’s Iran-Armenian Border) • For the first time in the seven decade-long history of the search for the legendary Noah’s Ark, a Turkish-Hong Kong exploration team on Tuesday came out with “material evidence”, to prove that the Ark was nestled on Mount Ararat, Turkey’s highest mountain peak bordering Iran and Armenia.
A panel of experts, comprising Turkish authorities, veteran mountaineers, archaeologists, geologists and members of Hong Kong-based Noah’s Ark Ministries International, also displayed an almost one-metre-long peice of petrified wood before the media and specially invited international experts.
The experts claimed it to be a part of a long structure they had unearthed during their February-August 2007 exploration. “It is for the first time in the history of the Ark search that an exploration team is getting a material evidence and graphic documentation. This makes it not only a the significant breakthrough in the Ark-search, but one that is supported with the most substantial evidence in recent history,” the panel said.
The revelation is expected to open up a fresh chapter in the ongoing debates in the scientific community on the search for Noah’s Ark.
Narrating the genesis of their exploration on Mount Ararat, the mount which has a direct reference in Holy Quran (Mount Judi) and Bible, the panel said the search team had made several foiled attempts before unearthing the evidence at an altitude of 4,500-metres of the estimated 5,165 metre volcanic mountain.
“The structure was discovered in the interiors of an unusual cave. The 11.5m wide and 2.6m high white wooden texture was revealed after removing thick layers of volcanic ash on the cave wall,” panel members said at a press conference.
One of the underlying issues in the search for the Ark is the proper identification of its wood fragments. A petrographic examination carried out by the Applied Geoscience Centre of the Department of Earth Sciences, University of Hong Kong, identified the object as a petrified wooden structure, the panel said.
“Some of the big holes found on the structure indicate the locations where branches used to grow on tree. In places, original holes are partly or completely replaced by individual minerals and crystalline materials that can be found in rock materials,” said Dr Ahmet Ozbek, a panel member, who is also a faculty of Geology Engineering Kahramanmara Suctcu Imam University.
Dismissing the possibilities of the structure being wood that could appear naturally around the discovery site, Professor Oktay Belli, director, Eurasian Archaeology Institute, University of Istanbul, said researches have proved that there was no vegetation on Mount Ararat ever since 2000BC, because of the asperities of Ararat’s climate.
Talking to The Peninsula, Cemalettin Demircioglu, Dogubayazit City Governor, under whose jurisdiction the mount is located, said the civic body will invite more international experts to conduct further scientific studies on Mount Ararat.
“History has more than one times corroborated the legendary evidence that the ark was nestled on Mount Ararat. We will introduce the latest findings to the world and continue the scientific study. All interested scientists and NGOs can join our missions” he said. However, he said, those who are involved in the project must ensure the findings are not used politically, religiously, or for any vested interest.
Located in the Far Eastern Turkey, Ararat is great prize for mountain collectors. Ark sighting has often been reported from this mountain. The observation of Vessel-shaped features in aerial photograph of Ararat had caused a stir in the late 1950’s. However, this is the first time an exploration team is coming out with “material evidence”.
Well, Dr. Price has an excellent reputation and he’s not one who is known to “hype” anything. He’s cautious and although he’s convinced the ark is somewhere up there, he’s not going to just go “willy-nilly” and verify anything without rigorous testing and ample evidence. When he verifies something — it’s going to be “absolutely sure” and scientifically done. That’s the kind of reputation he has — and that’s exactly the kind of “reputation” that all Christians need to have in looking at this sort of thing.
It sounds like (from what the information is, that is given) that the guides and others who “control” the situation have “bamboozled” some “media guys” (the expeditionary team) and have excluded “experts” who are qualified to make scientific determinations ... for the purpose of perpetrating a hoax, more than anything else.
I wouldn’t be dismissing that expert’s valid information and experience, from what I’ve seen from him over the years, and I’ve been familiar with him from long before anything here ever came up. He’s well qualified and respected in Christian circles and is in no way minimizing the existence of the Ark, as we are told, in the Bible.
How would one “ verify” or “authenticate” this?
So when the three men I admire most took the last train for the coast, it was the Gulf Coast?
What a bullshit article passing for “journalism”.......and too many of y’all are biting (and you damned well should know better).
This piece doesn’t say jack-squat to prove this is a “hoax”. All it does is trot out a bunch of “skeptics” (gee golly, what a shock).
Yet, you all join the chorus.
What in the hell are you all afraid of? Jeez Louise. The Bible says the Ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat. Where the hell else would you expect it to be found? Why the knee-jerk reaction and all the sarcasm on this thread?
Just pisses me off. Closed minds always do that to me.
How would one “ verify” or “authenticate” this?
The first thing you do to verify or authenticate that -- is you let experts in their fields (regarding archeology and/or testing methodologies) get in there and have free reign to examine and test things ... plus be able to examime the overall location and see if it's something consistent with a big boat being there... (namely, you don't find it inside of a cave on the side of a mountain, as it seems that the guide is trying to "show" to others).
Experts have been excluded from the expedition and just the "media guys" (that's who is in that expedition). And you don't let the "guide" keep control over all materials (from the supposed site) and keep it locked up and only show it when he says so and not let the experts get their hands on it. And you don't keep these experts exluded from examining the actual location.
You "start" with a good methodology ... and then you "work it through" and examine all the details of the site and see if it's "consistent" with an ark being there.
You look for the things that negate that this particular site is the actual location of the ark and see if those facts and reasons are valid. You work from the negative and see if any are valid and hold up to scrutiny.
When you find people restricting access, keeping out the experts, using only "media people" and these same media people have an "investment" in the expedition and especially in showing it on their media outlets -- it's not too good of a methodology for getting the right information about it.
That's a start... and that is not what is being done here...
I agree.
There was another article where Price, It could have been someone else, wanted $100,000 and seem to say there was a hoax.
There are a lot of people who have attempted this. I would double-check the guy you're talking about. If you want to see more about this particular guy I'm talking about -- you can see some prior reports he's had on that ... at his website (which contains a lot more than just something about Noah's Ark, by the way). You can see some prior newsletters he's had, plus one webpage where he posts a statement.
I would also listen to his interview on Jan Markell's Olive Tree Ministries program ...
May 1, 2010 - Hour 1
Eric Barger sits in for Jan who needed a weekend off. His guest is Dr. Randall Price who addresses the alleged recent finding of "Noah's Ark." Why is this likely bogus? Will it ever be found? Price has upcoming expeditions planned for Mt. Ararat and has made numerous attempts to find the Ark which have all failed to date. He feels he is close, however, to an amazing discovery. Would this be an end-time sign that the Bible is accurate? Remember, the "last days" are compared to the days of Noah. Find the spring conference CDs and DVDs Eric referred to here. They will be ready to ship in about two weeks. We also carry several of Barger's products in our "store." www.ericbarger.com -- www.worldofthebible.com
I suppose that some would take people up the mountain for a large sum of money.
Yeah, if you listen to the interview by Dr. Randall Price, you'll find out that it's the guide who is controllling all the artifacts and access to the site ... that's one culprit I would put the finger on ... :-)
There is defiantly something in the ice.
Perhaps, and Dr. Randall Price thinks there's something up there, too... but he's not saying that it's Noah's Ark. He'll be verifying it first before saying so.
And so, the question is not so much that there "is something up there" -- but rather -- "What is it, that is up there?" ... :-)
I think it’s proof of life on other planets.
“Ararat is great prize for mountain collectors”
huh?
I would very much like an Ararat first edition in my collection...it’d go quite well with my Rockies (Canadian and American), my Unaka from the Great Smokies, and my Mt Dora from Florida...next on my list though, is an Ande...
This piece doesn’t say jack-squat to prove this is a “hoax”. All it does is trot out a bunch of “skeptics” (gee golly, what a shock).
Well, there's an expert in archeology who has been up there, and is going up again, who pretty much says this sounds like a hoax. And he's one of those who is actually looking for Noah's Ark ... :-)
So, this idea that it's a "hoax" is not something that is being perpetrated by skeptics in the Bible, but also it's being said by those who have been on expeditions looking for Noah's Ark on that very mountain and who believe exactly what the Bible says and still "sees" the hoax being perpetrated here...
See Post #28 ...
Also, see Post #17 for other FReeper articles on the subject.
I used to say the exact same thing because that was the mantra in science class. But then I started asking if there was any experimental or emperical evidence that verified these statements. To my surprise, I have yet to find any. All sources I have found seem to take this "long time to fossilize" as a given, with no need to verify.
if you find any verification of this oft-repeated "fact" I would love to see it.
if you find any verification of this oft-repeated "fact" I would love to see it.
There's evidence to the contrary ... namely being able to petrify wood in just a few days (there may even be quicker methods, as I seem to remember a day or less..., too...).
Petrified Wood in Days
January 25, 2005
Petrified wood is a type of fossil, in which the tissues of a dead plant are replaced with minerals (most often a silicate, like quartz). The petrifaction process occurs underground, when wood or woody materials suddenly become buried under sediment. Mineral-rich water flowing through the sediment deposits minerals in the plant's cells and as the plant's lignin and cellulose decays away, a stone cast is left in its place.
Shin's petrified wood journey began in a less dramatic fashion, a few minutes away at Lowe's, Shin's group reports in the current issue of the journal Advanced Materials, in the do-it-yourselfer chain's lumberyard,. There they picked up their raw material: pine and poplar boards. Back at PNNL, they gave a 1 centimeter cube of wood a two-day acid bath, soaked it in a silica solution for two more (for best results, repeat this step up to three times), air-dried it, popped it into an argon-filled furnace gradually cranked up to 1,400 degrees centigrade to cook for two hours, then let cool in argon to room temperature. Presto. Instant petrified wood, the silica taking up permanent residence with the carbon left in the cellulose to form a new silicon carbide, or SiC, ceramic. The material "replicates exactly the wood architecture," according to Shin.
Petrified wood
Petrified wood (from the Greek root "petro" meaning "rock" or "stone", literally "wood turned into stone") is a type of fossil: it consists of fossil wood where all the organic materials have been replaced with minerals (most often a silicate, such as quartz), while retaining the original structure of the wood. The petrifaction process occurs underground, when wood becomes buried under sediment and is initially preserved due to a lack of oxygen. Mineral-rich water flowing through the sediment deposits minerals in the plant's cells and as the plant's lignin and cellulose decay away, a stone mould forms in its place.
In general, wood takes less than 100 years to petrify. The organic matter needs to become petrified before it decomposes completely. A forest where the wood has petrified becomes known as a petrified forest.
[ ... ]
Artificial petrified wood
Artificial petrified wood has been produced in a Washington laboratory. In the process small cubes of pine were soaked in an acid bath for two days, then in a silica solution for another two. The product was then cooked at 1400 °C in an argon atmosphere for two hours. The result was silicon carbide ceramic which preserved the intricate cell structure of the wood. Soaking in a tungsten solution produced a tungsten carbide petrified wood.
“Petrified wood
Petrified wood (from the Greek root “petro” meaning “rock” or “stone”, literally “wood turned into stone”) is a type of fossil: it consists of fossil wood where all the organic materials have been replaced with minerals (most often a silicate, such as quartz), while retaining the original structure of the wood. The petrifaction process occurs underground, when wood becomes buried under sediment and is initially preserved due to a lack of oxygen. Mineral-rich water flowing through the sediment deposits minerals in the plant’s cells and as the plant’s lignin and cellulose decay away, a stone mould forms in its place.
In general, wood takes less than 100 years to petrify. The organic matter needs to become petrified before it decomposes completely. A forest where the wood has petrified becomes known as a petrified forest.”
That Wiki article attributes the 100 year timeframe to the source “Petrified Forest National Park - Frequently Asked Questions from the U.S. National Park Service”
But if you look at that reference it says “How long does it take wood to petrify? Until we build that time machine, we probably will never know. It is thought by researchers that it took a relatively (geologically) short time due to some features of the logs. There are certain types of petrified wood in the park that actually still contain organic material, including lignin”
There is no mention at all of that 100 year timeframe.
There is no mention at all of that 100 year timeframe.
What we do know for sure... is that it can happen in a mere few days ... that part is known for sure.
Now, I'll have to look up some more information on it, that I know I've read before, but there may be some indication of a time-frame in some natural setting (but mind you, this lab situation could have also happened in a natural setting during some cataclysmic event, too...).
I'll see if I can find that other article.
The main thing to know right now -- is that you can petrify wood in as little as a few days ... and that's pretty significant, all by itself.
It's wood that came to rest on the top of a mountain after a great flood. It won't ever be found because it rotted away thousands of years ago.
Obviously not. Not the first account of an expedition finding such wood....not to mention an entire ship....in that area. Check out the early 20th century Russian expedition and other eyewitness accounts. That is WELL above the tree line, friend.
Now tell me how a wooden boat got up there. I’ll wait.
by Andrew Snelling
September 1995
‘Instant petrified wood’ — so ran the heading to the announcement in Popular Science, October 1992.1 It’s also the reality of research conducted at the Advanced Ceramic Labs at the University of Washington in Seattle (USA).
Researchers have also made wood-ceramic composites that are 20–120% harder than regular wood, but still look like wood. Surprisingly simple, the process involves soaking wood in a solution containing silicon and aluminium compounds. The solution fills the pores in the wood, which is then oven-cured at 44°C (112°F). According to the lab’s research director, Daniel Dobbs, such experiments have impregnated the wood to depths of about 5 millimetres (0.2 inches). Furthermore, deeper penetration under pressure and curing at higher temperature have yielded a rock-hard wood-ceramic composite that has approached petrified wood.
Patent 'recipe' for petrification
However, priority for the discovery of a 'recipe' for petrification of wood must go to Hamilton Hicks of Greenwich, Connecticut (USA), who on September 16, 1986 was issued with US Patent Number 4,612,050.2 According to Hicks, his chemical 'cocktail' of sodium silicate (commonly known as 'water glass'), natural spring or volcanic mineral water having a high content of calcium, magnesium, manganese, and other metal salts, and citric or malic acid is capable of rapidly petrifying wood. But in case you want to try this 'recipe,' you need to know that for artificial petrification to occur there is some special technique for mixing these components in the correct proportions to get an 'incipient' gel condition.
Hicks wrote:
'When applied to wood, the solution penetrates the wood. The mineral water and sodium silicate are relatively proportioned so the solution is a liquid of stable viscosity and is acidified to the incipient jelling [gelling] condition to a degree causing jelling [gelling] after penetrating the wood, but not prior thereto. That is to say, the solution can be stored and shipped, but after application to the wood, jells [gels] in the wood. When its content is high enough, the penetrated wood acquires the characteristics of petrified wood. The wood can no longer be made to burn even when exposed to moisture or high humidity, for a prolonged period of time. The apparent petrification is obtained quickly by drying the wood.'3
The patent indicates that the amount of acid in the solution appears to have a critical effect on the production of the gel phase within the cell structure of the wood, although evaporation also plays its part. Wood thoroughly impregnated, even if necessary by repeated applications or submersions of the wood in the solution, after drying evidently has all the characteristics of petrified wood, including its appearance.
Both Hicks and the researchers at the University of Washington lab have suggested potential uses for such 'instant' petrified woods:
Rapid natural petrification
The chemical components used to artificially petrify wood can be found in natural settings around volcanoes and within sedimentary strata. Is it possible then that natural petrification can occur rapidly by these processes? Indeed! Sigleo4 reported silica deposition rates into blocks of wood in alkaline springs at Yellowstone National Park (USA) of between 0.1 and 4.0 mm/yr.
From Australia come some startling reports. Writing in The Australian Lapidary Magazine, Pigott5 recounts his experiences in southwestern Queensland:
'. . . from Mrs McMurray [of Blackall], I heard a story that rocked me and seemed to explode many ideas about the age of petrified wood. Mrs McMurray has a piece of wood turned to stone which has clear axe marks on it. She says the tree this piece came from grew on a farm her father had at Euthella, out of Roma, and was chopped down by him about 70 years ago. It was partly buried until it was dug up again, petrified. Mac McMurray capped this story by saying a townsman had a piece of petrified fence post with the drilled holes for wire with a piece of the wire attached.
'Petrified wood thousands of years old? I wonder is it so?'
Several months later Pearce6 added further to these amazing stories of woods rapidly petrified in the ground of 'outback' Queensland:
'. . . Piggott writes of petrified wood showing axe marks and also of a petrified fence post.
'This sort of thing is, of course, quite common. The Hughenden district, N. Q. [North Queensland], has . . . Parkensonia trees washed over near a station [ranch] homestead and covered with silt by a flood in 1918 [which] had the silt washed off by a flood in 1950. Portions of the trunk had turned to stone of an attractive colour. However, much of the trunks and all the limbs had totally disappeared.
'On Zara Station [Ranch], 30 miles [about 48 kilometres] from Hughenden, I was renewing a fence. Where it was dipped into a hollow the bottom of the old posts had gone through black soil into shale. The Gidgee wood was still perfect in the black soil. It then cut off as straight as if sawn, and the few inches of post in the shale was pure stone. Every axe mark was perfect and the colour still the same as the day the post was cut . . . .
'I understand that down in the sandhill country below Boulia [south-western Queensland], where fences are often completely covered by shifting sand, it's a common thing for the sand to shift off after a number of years, leaving stone posts standing erect.'
From the other side of the world comes a report of the chapel of Santa Maria of Health (Santa Maria de Salute), built in 1630 in Venice, Italy, to celebrate the end of The Plague. Because Venice is built on watersaturated clay and sand, the chapel was constructed on 180,000 wooden pilings to reinforce the foundations. Even though the chapel is a massive stone block structure, it has remained firm since its construction. How have the wooden pilings lasted over 360 years? They have petrified! The chapel now rests on 'stone' pilings!7
Experimental verification
Of course, none of these reports should come as a surprise, since the processes of petrification of wood have been known for years, plus the fact that the process can occur, and has occurred, rapidly. For example Scurfield and Segnit8 had reported that the petrification of wood can be considered to take place in five stages:
Furthermore Oehler9 had previously shown that the silica minerals quartz and chalcedony critically important in the petrification of wood, can be made, rapidly in the laboratory from silica gel. At 300°C (572°F) and 3 kilobars (about 3,000 atmospheres) pressure only 25 hours was required to crystallize quartz, whereas at only 165°C (329°F) and 3 kilobars pressure the same degree of crystallization occurred in 170 hours (about seven days).
Similarly, Drum10 had partially silicified small branches by placing them in concentrated solutions of sodium metasilicate for up to 24 hours, while Leo and Barghoorn11 had immersed fresh wood alternately in water and saturated ethyl silicate solutions until the open spaces in the wood were filled with mineral material, all within several months to a year. Likewise, as early as 1950 Merrill and Spencer12 had shown that the sorption of silica by wood fibres from solutions of sodium metasilicate, sodium silicate and activated silica sols (a homogeneous suspension in water) at only 25°C (77°F) was as much as 12.5 moles of silica per gram within 24 hours--the equivalent of partial silicification/petrification. As Sigleo concluded,
'These observations indicate that silica nucleation and deposition can occur directly and rapidly on exposed cellulose [wood] surfaces.'13
Conclusions
The evidence, both from scientists' laboratories and God's natural laboratory, shows that under the right chemical conditions wood can be rapidly petrified by silicification, even at normal temperatures and pressures. The process of petrification of wood is now so well known and understood that scientists can rapidly make petrified wood in their laboratories at will.
Unfortunately, most people still think, and are led to believe, that fossilized wood buried in rock strata must have taken thousands, if not millions, of years to petrify. Clearly, such thinking is erroneous, since it has been repeatedly demonstrated that petrification of wood can, and does, occur rapidly. Thus the timeframe for the formation of the petrified wood within the geological record is totally compatible with the biblical time-scale of a recent creation and a subsequent devastating global Flood.
References
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