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Retired Army general: Lt. Col. Lakin has 'valid point'
World Net Daily ^ | April 23, 2010 | Chelsea Schilling

Posted on 04/23/2010 8:47:39 AM PDT by Smokeyblue

A retired Army general and national security policy expert says Lt. Col. Terry Lakin has "a valid point" and should use his "right to discovery" to force the Obama administration to produce proof of his natural-born citizenship status.

In an interview with Evil Conservative Radio, Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely said, "I think many in the military – and many out of the military – question the natural-birth status of Barack Obama. … I'm not convinced that he is [a natural-born citizen]."

Vallely, CEO of Stand Up America U.S., graduated from the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and was commissioned in the Army in 1961, serving 32 years.

He said he inspected his own long-form birth certificate, and it contains a doctor's name, date and location of birth.

"But he's never been able to produce that," he said of Obama. "His unwillingness to do it also concerns me. I think Lt. Col. Lakin has a valid point. … He refuses to produce a birth certificate that states the witnessing of the birth, the date and who is the doctor. We don't know why he won't come out with that."

(Excerpt) Read more at wnd.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: army; beckisabirther; birthcertificate; certifigate; gibbsisabirther; lakin; military; naturalborncitizen; obama; obamaisabirhter; oreillyisabirther; terrylakin; whatisobamahiding; whoisbarackobama
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To: Mr Rogers

The burden of proof is on you. You made the claim.

Where have Congress and the Courts redefined “natural born citizen” to be other than the definition they used for McCain’s SR511 that every POTUS in our history has met except one who burned his history to conceal it???

And what Federal Court has overturned this long-standing definition of an NBC:

http://www.thepostemail.com/2009/10/18/4-supreme-court-cases-define-natural-born-citizen/

Where has anyone of significance referred to Obama as a “natural born citizen”. Even his own blog refers to him as “native born” — that’s all — or just a citizen.

All you can claim is that he is POTUS despite the fact that he is not an Article II natural born citizen.

Even Nancy Pelosi couldn’t bring herself to perjure herself in affidavits to 49 of the states.

The definition of NBC remains as the Founders used it and Obama does not meet it — and Congress and the Courts and the Military know it — and you do as well.


81 posted on 04/23/2010 10:07:35 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: Beckwith
This thing doesn't have a seal certifying it. Can you spell BOGUS?

I don't understand. Are you saying it's a fraudulent document? And when the State of Hawaii said it's a valid document, were they in on this conspiracy, too?

82 posted on 04/23/2010 10:07:43 AM PDT by Kleon
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To: Las Vegas Ron; Kleon

For lack of time, I only researched the last case you cite. You might consider this following (1931) Supreme Court case:

“7. The children of a marriage between an Indian woman and a white man usually take the status of the father, but if the wife retains her tribal membership and the children are born in the tribal environment and there reared by her, with the husband failing to discharge his duties to them, they take the status of the mother. P. 283 U. S. 763.”

http://supreme.justia.com/us/283/753/case.html


83 posted on 04/23/2010 10:10:15 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Smokeyblue; LucyT; Fred Nerks; BP2; null and void; stockpirate; george76; PhilDragoo; Candor7; ...
What follows, is a bit of information with regards to the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen" (specifically) and NOT about the entire makeup, functions, origins and influences that made/make up our form of government, a Constitutional Republic.

Who, or "what" constituted a natural born citizen was well known to the framers. Jay would not have made such a suggestion to the others (Washington & the rest of those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention) unless there was a clear understanding of what that term meant. The definition comes from a source that not only were the framers familiar with, but the founders (many who were both) as well. And yes, even though most could not speak French, most read French (except, notably, Washington who would defer to Jefferson when such interpretation was needed).

 

NBC in the Constitutional drafts:

June 18th, 1787 - Alexander Hamilton suggests that the requirement be added, as: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States." Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 407).

July 25, 1787 (~5 weeks later) - John Jay writes a letter to General Washington (president of the Constitutional Convention): "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen." [the word born is underlined in Jay's letter which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth.] http://rs6.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/hlaw:@field%28DOCID+@lit%28fr00379%29%29:

September 2nd, 1787 George Washington pens a letter to John Jay. The last line reads: "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter"
http://www.consource.org/index.asp?bid=582&fid=600&documentid=71483

September 4th, 1787 (~6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay) - The "Natural Born Citizen" requirement is now found in their drafts. Madison's notes of the Convention
The proposal passed unanimously without debate.

 

Original French version of Vattel's Law of Nations:

Emer de Vattel, Le droit des gens, ou Principes de la loi naturelle, vol. 1 (of 2) [1758]

From Chapter XIX, 212 (page 248 of 592):
Title in French: "Des citoyens et naturels"
To English: "Citizens and natural"

French text (about citizens): "Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages."
-------------------
To English: "The citizens are the members of the civil society: linked to this society by certain duties and subject to its authority, they participate with equality has its advantages."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
French text (about "natural" born citizens): "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens"
-------------------
To English, gives this: "the natural, or indigenous, are those born in the country, parents who are citizens"

Prior to the Constitution

"This 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel is of special importance to scholars of constitutional history and law, for it was read by many of the Founders of the United States of America, and informed their understanding of the principles of law which became established in the Constitution of 1787. Chitty's notes and the appended commentaries by Edward D. Ingraham, used in lectures at William and Mary College, provide a valuable perspective on Vattel's exposition from the viewpoint of American jurists who had adapted those principles to the American legal experience."

Thomas Jefferson (for one example) had the 1758 version as well as a 1775 version in his own library:
Thomas Jefferson's Library: A Catalog with the Entries in His Own Order (under a section he titled "Ethics. Law of Nature and Nations."

In AUTOBIOGRAPHY by Thomas Jefferson, he states: "On the 1st of June 1779. I was appointed Governor of the Commonwealth and retired from the legislature. Being elected also one of the Visitors of Wm. & Mary college, a self-electing body, I effected, during my residence in Williamsburg that year, a change in the organization of that institution by abolishing the Grammar school, and the two professorships of Divinity & Oriental languages, and substituting a professorship of Law & Police, one of Anatomy Medicine and Chemistry, and one of Modern languages; and the charter confining us to six professorships, we added the law of Nature & Nations..." This was 8 years prior the the writing of the Constitution! [See the "Law of Nature & Nations" section of his personal library to get an idea of what he included in this curriculum in America's 1st law school].

Note: Vattel, is one of only 10 "footnotes" in Jefferson's Biography, from Yale.

After the Constitution

The same definition was referenced in the dicta of many early SCOTUS cases as well...some examples:

"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel’s definition of Natural Born Citizen)
SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)"
http://www.scribd.com/doc/17519578/Kerchner-v-Obama-Congress-DOC-34-Plaintiffs-Brief-Opposing-Defendants-Motion-to-Dismiss

A detailed, historical, etymology of the term "Natural Born Citizen" can be found here: http://www.greschak.com/essays/natborn/index.htm

Prior to Jay's famous letter to those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention, we see (one of many exchanges between the founders) a letter from Madison ("father" of the Constitution) to Jay:

"James Madison, as a member of the Continental Congress in 1780, drafted the instructions sent to John Jay, for negotiating a treaty with Spain, which quotes at length from The Law of Nations. Jay complained that this letter, which was probably read by the Spanish government, was not in code, and "Vattel's Law of Nations, which I found quoted in a letter from Congress, is prohibited here.[29]"
From: Life, Liberty, and The Pursuit of Happiness. How the Natural Law concept of G.W. Leibniz Inspired America's Founding Fathers.

Vattel's Law of Nations, built upon "natural law - which has it's roots in ancient Greece, was influenced by Leibniz.
Even Blackstone affirmed the basis of natural law:
"This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original” (1979, 41). In this passage, Blackstone articulates the two claims that constitute the theoretical core of conceptual naturalism: 1) there can be no legally valid standards that conflict with the natural law; and 2) all valid laws derive what force and authority they have from the natural law."

Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789.
David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolution’s first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period.

Ramsay REAFFIRMS the definition a Natural Born Citizen (born in country, to citizen parents (plural)) in 1789 A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789)

The Naturalization Act of 1790, which states (in relevant part) "that the children of citizens [plural] of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens"

Of course, the Act of 1790 was repealed by the Act of 1795 (which did NOT attempt to define or extend the definition for NBC). What the 1st Congress had tried to do in 1790 was to EXTEND the known definition (of born in country to citizen parentS) to those born outside of sovereign territory, to citizen parentS. Of course, they can't do that. Congress (by itself) doesn't have the Constitutional authority to define (or EXTEND) the term "Natural Born Citizen." Only a SCOTUS decision on the intent of the framers, or an amendment to the Constitution can do that.

It's interesting to note that (non binding) Senate Resolution 511, which attempted to proclaim that Sen. John McCain was a "Natural Born Citizen" because he was born to citizen parentS, even they referenced the (repealed) Naturalization Act of 1790: "Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen' clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress's own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen'". Obama, himself, was a signatory of that resolution knowing full well (no doubt) the requirement has always been about 2 citizen parents.

John Bingham, "father" of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by saying this:

commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))"

The point is, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term "Natural Born Citizen" has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory (& thus jurisdiction) of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country).

84 posted on 04/23/2010 10:10:17 AM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: Kleon
And when the State of Hawaii said it's a valid document, were they in on this conspiracy, too?

The State of Hawaii has never verified the document posted on the internet is valid.

85 posted on 04/23/2010 10:11:50 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: Kleon

You have two years of threads to catch up on. :)


86 posted on 04/23/2010 10:13:08 AM PDT by JohnnyP
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To: Uncle Chip

“Where have Congress and the Courts redefined “natural born citizen” to be other than the definition they used for McCain’s SR511 that every POTUS in our history has met except one who burned his history to conceal it???”

Hmmm...when they certified the election of Obama as President without a single dissent, knowing his father WASN’T a US citizen?

When the US Supreme Court refused to accept a case that could have blocked Obama from entering office?

When every state put him on the ballot, knowing his father wasn’t a US citizen?

But get back to me when you can win a case anywhere...


87 posted on 04/23/2010 10:13:17 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: kiltie65

At one time, somebody posted a picture of The 0ne when he was supposedly about 6 years old, next to a friend that was about the same age, and BO appeared to be considerably larger/older than the other kid.


88 posted on 04/23/2010 10:15:20 AM PDT by smokingfrog (Free Men will always be armed with the Truth.)
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To: rxsid

When will the American people demand that this issue be resolved and, those in this Congress that know the truth and hid it, be held accountable???


89 posted on 04/23/2010 10:15:47 AM PDT by ExTexasRedhead (Clean the RAT/RINO Sewer in 2010 and 2012)
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To: Mr Rogers
Also from the same....

MR. JUSTICE VAN DEVANTER delivered the opinion of the Court. These suits were brought in the district court for the Western District of Washington to establish and enforce asserted rights to allotments, each of 80 acres, in the Quinaielt Indian Reservation in the southwestern part of that state.

So what does that have to do with the definition of NBC?

Nothing

90 posted on 04/23/2010 10:16:17 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: Kleon; May31st

2 Parents Citizens and as I was reminded of..... born on US soil.


91 posted on 04/23/2010 10:17:19 AM PDT by panthermom
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To: Kleon

It says pretty clearly that he was born in the United States.”

IF you aquaint yourself with the Hawaiian “Certificate Of Live Birth”, and the VARIOUS methods that apply for a RELATIVE to obtain one for a child, you might realize why we are not accepting the COLB.

There are many items on a REAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE that are NOT present on a COLB.


92 posted on 04/23/2010 10:18:30 AM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: RWGinger

For sure his original BC has something odumbo doesn’t want see.
I get tired of those of us who want him to come forward getting called kooks and extremist.
I am happy to see people like this good Doc ask for proof.”

Another thread her on FR said a few days ago that NObama is up around $2 million in spending to keep us from knowing the truth.


93 posted on 04/23/2010 10:20:51 AM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: Beckwith

“Testimony behind the Leahy resolution specifically identifies a “natural born” citizen as a person with TWO American citizen parents.”

That resolution applied to McCain, who was born in a different country - not to someone born in the USA Or do you REALLY think that Pat Leahy, communist, believes Obama is not the President?


94 posted on 04/23/2010 10:20:57 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: ridesthemiles
IF you aquaint yourself with the Hawaiian “Certificate Of Live Birth”, and the VARIOUS methods that apply for a RELATIVE to obtain one for a child, you might realize why we are not accepting the COLB.

You can choose to not accept it, that's fine. All I'm saying is that the court has to accept it as proof of citizenship, if Obama is even called to provide it.

95 posted on 04/23/2010 10:21:39 AM PDT by Kleon
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To: ridesthemiles; Kleon

But the LOCATION of birth is on the COLB...


96 posted on 04/23/2010 10:21:54 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Las Vegas Ron

They ruled on where one’s allegiance lies, when born of parents of mixed allegiance.

If raised by the mother, then it is to the mother’s country...


97 posted on 04/23/2010 10:23:14 AM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: Kleon

I’m pretty sure it’s not true—I got my passport by using the same electronically verified copy....that said, I wish this issue would either gain traction and become a MAJOR issue, or go away. As it is, it seems to be a distraction from other major issues (i.e., rampantly increasing government takeovers of every aspect of our lives).


98 posted on 04/23/2010 10:23:49 AM PDT by LexRex in TN ("A republic, if you can keep it.......")
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To: Mr Rogers
Hmmm...when they certified the election of Obama as President without a single dissent, knowing his father WASN’T a US citizen? When the US Supreme Court refused to accept a case that could have blocked Obama from entering office?

Show me the words from Congress and/or the Courts and /or the states where they redefined the term "natural born citizen" when they did this???

SHOW ME --

99 posted on 04/23/2010 10:24:13 AM PDT by Uncle Chip (TRUTH : Ignore it. Deride it. Allegorize it. Interpret it. But you can't ESCAPE it.)
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To: ridesthemiles
Another thread her on FR said a few days ago that NObama is up around $2 million in spending to keep us from knowing the truth.

That's been going around for a while, and is actually never been proven. As far as I can tell, they're taking all of his legal fees and assuming they're all related to the eligibility issue.

100 posted on 04/23/2010 10:24:22 AM PDT by Kleon
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