Posted on 03/19/2010 12:25:37 PM PDT by presidio9
"Freedom" has long been a right-wing rallying cry for self-identified patriots ranging from John Birchers to tea party protesters to increasingly extreme members of the Republican establishment. They're particularly passionate about the freedom to own and openly carry guns and freedom from federal taxation (but not necessarily federal benefits). Otherwise, their most consistent attachments to freedom tend to be rhetorical, unless freedom means restricting reproductive choice, same-sex relationships, medical marijuana, or sexually explicit speech and permitting discrimination against people who do not acknowledge Jesus as their savior. For some prominent conservatives -- like John McCain, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, and Dick Cheney -- freedom also entails the establishment of a national security state empowered to arrest and imprison summarily people suspected of terrorism and to spy on people suspected of nothing in particular, thanks to a ubiquitous but largely invisible surveillance system.
There are, of course, exceptions to this statism. The CATO Institute, generally associated with the right because of its commitment to free markets, is equally, if less notoriously, committed to civil liberty. CATO is unusual in its consistent libertarianism, which means, however, that (like Reason magazine), it is a creature of neither the right nor the left. A recent CATO report estimates that some 14 percent of Americans also qualify as libertarian, meaning that they're fiscally conservative and socially liberal (although it's unclear if fiscal conservatives who believe "the less government the better" are willing to surrender their own government benefits, from Pell grants to Medicare).
Libertarians are labile voters,
(Excerpt) Read more at theatlantic.com ...
I’ve stated my case on Reagan’s stance on libertarianism as it pertains to the quotes in the article numerous times to you on this thread. You absolutely refuse to listen to any of it. Why would I waste my time any further?
Answer: I won’t. You’ve already shown yourself to be an unscrupulous debater, who called Mr. Reagan man a liar and a political panderer without hesitation, to prop up your thinly veiled arguement. I now have you on permanent FR record with that opinion, which several others noted as well. It’s bookmarked.
The rest of the blabber is just you, fumbling over yourself because you were called out on it. If you want to continue, be my guest :)
Why would I bother to refute your points when you haven’t even acknoledged mine? I clearly posted the paragraph you claimed I haven’t even read in post 30, and made several points of my own. Your only counterpoint was that you thought Reagan was a liar and a political panderer.
You really expect people to carry on a debate with you after you refuse to acknowledge any point that the person you’re trying to goad has made? That ain’t how it works, pal.
And your integrity is on display for everyone here to see.
Try actually reading posts 193 (this time), post 196, and the post that I am about to right after this one (should come in at 204). You know, "so as not to embarass you right away," whatever the heck that means.
I'm reading your post again, and it what is says is what libertarianism means to you. You make no attempt to tie Ronald Reagan to libertarianism in any way shape or form, other than a single quote. I've failed to point this out so far in this thread, but I must remind you that there is no record of Reagan even once saying a single positive thing ever again outside this 1975 interview in Reason Magazine. That was supposed to be your "case." In other words, you haven't made one. You and I have been down this road before. You post something idiotic directly to me. I call you on it with documented proof. If you stay according to script, your next move will be to call me a liar, but you will be unable to identify the lie.
Incidently, “so as not to embarass you right away,” you also need to read post 205.
Please continue.
Read that before my last reply. Can't help you statists if you won't pay attention.
Sorry, but this type of response only has moral significance when you have not been engaged in the same conversation before hand. No one twisted your arm to start posting to me, so there's no point in pretending to be above this conversation now.
Sorry, but this type of response indicates that the responder cannot refute the argument, but opts instead to either encourage the adversary to take his toys and go home, or does so himself.
Actually, the response indicates that I'm not that interested in your attempts to change the conversation. The argument was Reagan opposing libertarianism. Your inability to respond to my last comment is an admission that you've lost that argument. As much as you may wish to change the subject to current events, I happen to think that all libertarians are complete idiots. I don't value your input, so I'm not looking for it. When you try to re-write history to enlist Reagan into your cause, I'll correct you, but that's as far as I go with people base their politics on an incomplete philosophy.
You don't need to parse it, it is pretty clear.
This is a tatic losers often employ when they have completely run out of arguments. Not only did Reagan never say anything even remotely like that ever egain in his life, but your interpretation of that quote is fully contradicted by the actions that Reagan himself took during his presidency. It doesn't mean what you say it means, and it never will. I am repeating myself, of course, because I made all of these points in earlier post and you failed to address them then. At this point, you can understand that you are wrong, or you can stubbornly continue making an ass out of yourself. Either way, Reagan's record will be dependably opposed to libertarianism. Personally, it doesn't bother me repeating the greatness of Ronald Reagan over and over again.
Why are you so opposed to facts and the concept of liberty?
Certainly not. That's why I'm still enjoying this thread so much. I'm hoping it finally dawns on you that Conservatism is a very different political philosophy from libertarianism. I'm hoping that when you do, you will finally realize that you're wasting your time hanging out on this website. Conservatism is well-established. It's views on government aren't going to change. You should find a nice libertarian website, and hopefully take a few idiot libertarians with you.
One of my favorite Democrats, my Senator Daniel Pat Moynihan once famously said "You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts." The liberals are currently basterdizing that quote, misquoting it, and otherwise using it falsely or inappropriately. It still applies to our own current disagreement. You have have chosen to adopt the naive and unworkable libertarian philosophy. Conservatism is based on libertarian philosophy, but recognizes it as unsustainable in everyday life. Most of the Founding Fathers were at heart libertarians, but that didn't stop Washington from putting down the Whiskey Rebellion, or Hamilton from creating tarriffs. Conservatism necessarily imposes restrictions on pure libertarian philosopy. Reagan understood this well, which is one of the reasons he is so reverered but Conservatives. Libertarians, in turn, should rightly hate Reagan, if they know their history. You read a quote by Reagan, and you distill it into a libertarian context. In otherwords, you allow your own opinions to color the facts. A proper historian, uses the facts to form his own opinions. Reagan fired the striking aircraft controllers, so that government could protect citizens from each other. I've given you ten other examples, but you refuse to listen, because you don't like what you're hearing. Ronald Reagan is not your guy. You don't even like him, you just hate to admit it. Find another playground.
Thanks for the report there, Spiro.
Is that what this is now? Do you need to at least have the last word? You haven't attempted to respond to any of the points I've made, so I'm assuming that's the case.
You just don't want to hear it.
I am just having difficulty engaging in and disengaging from a discussion about the downside of liberty on Free Republic, of all places.
I guess you finally wore me down. Be sure and give us a report from mainstream Republican cheerleading camp.
You haven't. This is me calling you a liar to your face. Feel free to continue to be a weasel, if that's the best you can do. If you have a satisfactory explaination of your position that Ronald Reagan was a closet Libertarian, everyone on this planet would LOVE to hear it. History proves your wrong repeatedly, and your own personal desires and dreams don't count, of course.
I am just having difficulty engaging in and disengaging from a discussion about the downside of liberty on Free Republic, of all places.
The only two conversations you and I are having are thus: Was Ronald Reagan a Libertarian (answer: definitely not), and do modern political libertarians belong on FR (answer: the actions and policies of our leader, President Reagan prove that they don't). Libertarians have a place in the Republican party, acting as one of several consciences for the Conservatives. They do not belong on a Conservative website, because libertarians and conservatives are differnet animals. I have provided you with about a dozen examples, both from the Reagan Presidency and from that of George Washington which prove that to be the case. There are thousands of others, from presidents including both Bushes, Lincoln, Nixon, Eisenhower, and even some Democrats like FDR & Clinton. Conservatives accept the need for government intrusion over personal liberty on some occasions. Reagan is quite clear about this in the quote you provided. It is typical of a libertarian that you discard facts the minute they become inconvenient.
You promised to go away. It doesn't bother me a bit whether you keep that promise (you won't, because like every libertarian, you are equally stupid and convinced that you know something most people haven't figurered out), I just want you to know that I will be reminding you of that fact every time you come back to this thread. I also want you to know that like a lot of people on this thread, I WAS a libertarian in college. I know everything you know, but I was bright enough to grow out of it.
I said he said this:
"If you analyze it I believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism. "
Go ahead and deny it, it was said.......by Ronald Reagan.
Just because you don't like it doesn't make it untrue.
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