Another new twist in birth certificate story: Hawaii "paper copy was destroyed in a fire"

World Net Daily ^ | March 2, 2010 | Joseph Farah

[2ndDivisionVet]

The Hawaii Department of Health claims to have an original copy of Barack Obama's birth certificate, right?

In fact, it is this established "fact" that has persuaded so many people there is nothing to the question of eligibility.

After all, an official in Hawaii has made a public pronouncement that she has inspected the document and declared on her own authority that Obama is a "natural born American" and thus eligible to serve as president.

For many Americans, that settles the question.

However, now a new version of the story is emerging.

The United Kingdom's Sky News reported Saturday: "Authorities in Hawaii have provided an electronic record of Obama's birth because the paper copy was destroyed in a fire which wiped out much of the state's archives."

Which is it?

Does Hawaii actually have an original long-form, paper birth certificate for Obama, or was it destroyed in a fire?

It seems the story is ever-changing.

And that's why it's time for Obama to come clean.

There is little question the heavily Democratic state of Hawaii has no interest in providing any information that would disqualify the first president claiming to be from that state.

If indeed the state has a copy of the original birth certificate, as Director of Health Dr. Chiyome Fukino claims, it should be no problem for Obama to give her permission to release it publicly – and, once and for all, settle the controversy that has resulted in that state being inundated with inquiries from curious American citizens.

Fukino has released two public statements on this matter.(continued)

[Red Steel]

If the Daily Kos or Fight the Smears COLBs are forged or fraudulent then let any prosecuting attorney in the nation launch a criminal probe. Subpoena the original long form birth certificate and do a comparison with expert testimony taken under oath. I’m a bit surprised that no one has attempted that in the two years that this issue has been in the public eye.

Showing a fake document online and say it is real is not a crime fool. You know, just as when after-Birthers can spout and spread their cow manure all over the net like a John Deer tractor spewing fertilizer in a field. It's not a crime.

[jamese777]

If Barack Obama presented his official, state of Hawaii, long form, birth certificate and it said that he was born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961 at 7:24 p.m. at Kapiolani Medical Center and that baby Barack was delivered by Dr. Rodney T. West as has been previously reported, then what would you do and say?

[Red Steel]

If Barack Obama presented his official, state of Hawaii, long form, birth certificate and it said that he was born in Honolulu on August 4, 1961 at 7:24 p.m. at Kapiolani Medical Center and that baby Barack was delivered by Dr. Rodney T. West as has been previously reported, then what would you do and say?

BUT Obama hasn't presented his "official" long form birth certificate to no one in authority [courts], and if he did, it would have to come straight from the source, the Hawaiian DoH. If Obama did present a birth certificate to a court of law, it would be subject to discovery by the court to verify its veracity. Instead, Obama has avoided in doing so; instead Obama gave $$ millions of dollars to lawfirm(s) that defended him, or wasted the time of government lawyers defending him in many courts. As to Dr. Rodney West, here's the truth about him that I posted to another Obot:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

That biography of Dr. Rodney West that you linked to did not exist in January of 2009. I know, I looked all over Web then. It's part of the effort to re-write history or mislead the reader. You'll notice that it doesn't say when or how Dr. West played Chief of Staff at Kapi'olani hospital or that he retired in 1956. It's a written vagary to lie or to mislead the reader.

Here's an honest bio not tinged by political BS by the left. The screen shot below of Dr. West's bio was taken only hours after that women from Buffalo story broke where it states Dr West stopped delivering babies in 1956.

"And other things, he retired from the practice of medicine." Then in 1963, West became the president of the Hawaiian Medical Association. From 1975, and he founded and presided over the American College of Physician Executives.

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[jamese777]

Obama’s birth records can be subpoenaed in accordance with Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18(b)(9).

[votemout]

He has not opened his records to the public. He posted a document which is suspect.

When you run for public office, we'll want to see your documents. Until then I don't care if you burn them. Not interested.

I am not a birther. Not interested in your comments about them. I am seeking the truth by asking for public viewing of the best evidence about the president. The best evidence being the documents in files he will not open.

He has sent attorneys into courts to fight having to provide his records. You are covering for him on this issue. Again what are your motives? Protecting a fraud suspect?

You are not defending the constitution since he has never established his qualifications for the job. You are doing just the opposite.

It is amazing to see people cover up and support someone who is hiding his life from public scrutiny. If he wants to be president he has to provide more information.

I said nothing about Article II. You are restricting the public access to relevant information about someone who sought the most powerful office in the world. A publicaly elected official. His schooling and passport info are indeed relevant and they can verify or counter what he has said about his life and experience. The character and truth about these people who run for office is directly related to their qualifications for the office.

It comes down to you covering for him and me seeking the truth. So name call all you want and characterize my positon any way you want. In the end the truth will be known.

[EnderWiggins]

"He has not opened his records to the public. He posted a document which is suspect."

It is not his fault that you guys keep moving the goal posts. Somebody asked to see his birth certificate and he provided it. Anything more is feeding the trolls.

"He has sent attorneys into courts to fight having to provide his records. You are covering for him on this issue. Again what are your motives? Protecting a fraud suspect?"

You remain woefully misinformed.

The lawyers were sent to defend him from lawsuits that somebody else filed. Not a single Birther lawsuit would have been settled by him providing his records. If you imagine otherwise, then you cannot have ever read a single Birther pleading.

Again... my motives are to defend the United States Constitution as per my oath. I can answer the question just as many times as you can ask it.

"You are not defending the constitution since he has never established his qualifications for the job. You are doing just the opposite."

He has absolutely established his eligibility (not "qualifications") for the job. If you have evidence that contradicts the COLB, then show it. Otherwise your flaccid assertions impress nobody other than your fellow travelers.

"I said nothing about Article II."

Well, then we have nothing to talk about. Because that's the only issue I've addressed in any of these threads. I am not defending and never have defended Obama... I am defending the Constitution from Birthers who are trying to rewrite it.

[Red Steel]

Obama’s birth records can be subpoenaed in accordance with Hawaii Revised Statutes 338-18(b)(9).

Obfuscation is you. Anyone reading up this thread can see your prevarication.

[votemout]

You said that he has opened his records, yet lawyers are in court defending him for not doing so. Make up your mind. Waiting for you to call upon him to instruct the lawyers to stop and order his records to be opened.

There is no violation of the constitution in calling for the president to present information about his life. You're not defending the constitution, you're defending him.

Since you're so concerned about the constituion, lets have a court case on the natural born issue and let's see the original birth certificate. Then you can verify your claim that he's qualified and we're nut jobs. Until then, you're making up your motivation to defend the constitution. In fact you are opposing that very same thing you claim to defend.

The issue is beyond the constitution. It also includes character, lying, life experience. All of which we are entitled to know about our candidates before we give them the power of that office. You can walk around with blinders all you want.

Obama never established his qualifications. The DNC signed a form and gave it to the secretaries of state. That is not "establishing" qualifications. That's glossing over them.

Since you know he's qualified, join us slow learners in the quest for transparency and call upon him to live up to his pledge and be open with the people who elected him.

You can keep defending him and twisting what he's doing or you can join us in seeking full disclosure and the truth. Your decision says a lot about what you value and how gullible you are.

[jamese777]

Obfuscation is you. Anyone reading up this thread can see your prevarication

---

Yawn, is that the best you’ve got?

The exact wording of the Hawaii statute is that a confidential vital record can be released without the permission of the person named on the record, (point 9)by: “A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;”
A subpoena is an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.

Ergo, Obama’s birth certificate can be subpoenaed. Any judge in the US could issue a subpoena for the original document to any prosecuting attorney who might be investigating the copy of Obama’s COLB that was posted on the web for forgery or fraud.

[jamese777]

It is the statuatory duty of the chief election official of each state usually the Secretary of State to determine the eligibility of candidates to be on the ballot.
Even at this late date, any state could launch an investigation into whether Obama was truly eligible or not.
For example, in Indiana, private citizens challenged Obama’s (and McCain’s) right to receive Indiana’s Electoral Votes. Those private citizens sued Mitch Daniels, the Governor and the original trial court and the Indiana Court of Appeals ruled that both Obama and McCain qualify as Natural Born Citizens. The Indiana Attorney General argued the case for the defense. The case was Ankeny et. al v The Governor Of Indiana, Mitch Daniels decided in November, 2009.
The Ankeny case was a court decision on Obama’s eligibility.

[Red Steel]

It's a whole lot better than the BS you have been spewing.

The exact wording of the Hawaii statute is that a confidential vital record can be released without the permission of the person named on the record, (point 9)by: “A person whose right to inspect or obtain a certified copy of the record is established by an order of a court of competent jurisdiction;”A subpoena is an order of a court of competent jurisdiction.

And what did I say to you? I told you that Obama could spend the $12 dollars and release it of his own free will to the public and the courts straight from the Hawaiian DOH. Instead, Obama spent millions on lawfirm(s) to defend his sorry rear end, and Obama is now wasting the time of government lawyers and tax payers money to defend and hide his birth certificate he refuses to release. You think that's honest? Is dishonesty what you like in a president? Apparently you do as you defend his lying butt by obfuscation and prevarication.

any prosecuting attorney who might be investigating the copy of Obama’s COLB that was posted on the web for forgery or fraud.

And I told you that anyone can put a document on the Web and say it it genuine. Doesn't mean that it is and in Obama's case that thing will never see the inside of a courthouse because he would THEN be breaking the law by defrauding the court. The Obama 'COLB' as it is on the Web can now be pointed out by his minions of Obots - you - as real, that is not a crime.

You got that? ...I doubt it.

[jamese777]

I’d rather have Obama’s vital records subpoenaed by the order of a judge as a part of a criminal investigation than released under his personal authorization.

If you wouldn’t, that’s your choice.

By the way, there is no such thing as paying twelve bucks and receiving anything other than the short form COLB. So it is in reality YOU who are lying on this thread.

[jamese777]

And I told you that anyone can put a document on the Web and say it it genuine. Doesn’t mean that it is and in Obama’s case that thing will never see the inside of a courthouse because he would THEN be breaking the law by defrauding the court. The Obama ‘COLB’ as it is on the Web can now be pointed out by his minions of Obots - you - as real, that is not a crime.

You got that? ...I doubt it.

---

I’m going to spell this out for you the way I would for a child so that even someone of your obviously limited intelligence might possibly be able to understand it.

A prosecuting attorney can get a court order known as a “subpoena” in order to receive an official copy of Obama’s ORIGINAL birth records DIRECTLY from the state of Hawaii.

Any prosecutor can do that as a part of a criminal investigation as to whether when Barack Obama posted on his “Fight the Smears” web site an image of a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth with his name on it, he was committing a crime by using a forged or fraudulent image.

Do you understand now? I doubt it. I’m finished with you now. I fear that I might be losing IQ points just trying to communicate with someone like you.

[Red Steel]

I’d rather have Obama’s vital records subpoenaed by the order of a judge as a part of a criminal investigation than released under his personal authorization.

It would wouldn't matter either way how the documents are submitted to a court because if Obama submitted his dailyKos.org COLB or any other birth certificate to a court, it would be subjected to verification. What you guys always say if that Obama COLB is fraudulent, why hasn't any prosecutor started an investigation? And the answer is because Obama has not subjected his online COLB where it would come under scrutiny. Obama is not going to ever use that COLB in any official manner as it has served its purpose at duping the public. Anyone can publish or say things online saying whatever they purport to be real or genuine. The chances are low but some court in the future may subpoena Obama birth records from Hawaii. I doubt that you really want that though.

By the way, there is no such thing as paying twelve bucks and receiving anything other than the short form COLB. So it is in reality YOU who are lying on this thread.

No, I'm not lying. I don't do that. It has been reported many times here on FR that a Hawaiian Certification of Live Birth cost about $12.50. I suspect the fee would go up for incidentals for the court to secure the birth documents from Hawaii but not by much, and nowhere near the millions that Obama has spent defending against the release of his birth records.

[Red Steel]

I’m going to spell this out for you the way I would for a child so that even someone of your obviously limited intelligence might possibly be able to understand it.

Oh Please, you're the fool here or you are trying to fool people.

A prosecuting attorney can get a court order known as a “subpoena” in order to receive an official copy of Obama’s ORIGINAL birth records DIRECTLY from the state of Hawaii.

Yes they could, but you don't really want that to happen do you Obot?

Any prosecutor can do that as a part of a criminal investigation as to whether when Barack Obama posted on his “Fight the Smears” web site an image of a Hawaii Certification of Live Birth with his name on it, he was committing a crime by using a forged or fraudulent image.

And I've answered this question unequivocally above a few times to why. No, it's not a crime to lie online...if that was true many of you Obots would be causing an overflow of the jails by now.

Do you understand now? I doubt it. I’m finished with you now. I fear that I might be losing IQ points just trying to communicate with someone like you.

Are you sure you had any to begin with?

[votemout]

The secretaries of state did not perform their duties. They accepted the form submitted by the parties. In the past, the secretaries of state of Cal excluded two presidential candidates from the primary ballots because their birth certificates showed they were not old enough to qualify.

Last year the secretary of state of CA refused to look into OB's qualifications even though she knew of the allegations that he may not be qualified.

How did the state court rule when they didn't have the original birth certificate and they didn't rule on the status of his father and it's impact on being naturally born? When did the USSC rule on OB's status as a NBC? The answer is that they didn't.

This is about more than the court decisions and refusals. It is about the highest ranking public figure and the most powerful person in the world refusing to reveal relevant information about his birth location, his education, his passport usage, and his education status. The search for truth will continue irrespective of what the court in Indiana and a few other states have refuised to consider.

[edge919]

“No guts, no glory.” If the Republican Governor of Hawaii and the Republican Attorney General of Hawaii and Vice President Cheney, John McCain and Sarah Palin plus the entire Republican delegation in Congress are allowing their employees to play tricks and are afraid to take action, whose fault is that?

What employees are you talking about?? You're off on a logical fallacy or bizarre tangent.

Vice President Cheney, in his role as President of the Senate chaired the joint session of Congress where written objections to the certification of Obama’s electoral votes could be entertained and where counting and certification of the Electoral votes was the ONLY order of business. Any member of Congress can raise a point of order under the rules of both Houses, none did. A point of order immediately suspends business as usual.

For some reason, Cheney didn't ask for objections, which I believe is how the procedure is supposed to go ... plus Fancy Nancy was pushing things along. Of course, at that time, we don't know with as much certainty as we do now that the certificate number was most likely fraudulent. There may have been questions, but not to the point where anyone felt comfortable raising an objection.

One more time, ANY repeat ANY prosecuting attorney in the nation could launch a criminal probe and subpoena Obama’s birth records.

Please cite the source for you reasoning. Sounds like good drama, but it may be short on factuality.

The only nationally known figure to challenge Obama in court is Alan Keyes and he’s hardly a household name. None of the top conservative law firms or political organizations have joined in any eligibility suit or even filed an amicus brief on behalf of any lawsuit.

Which proves what??

The persons most likely to have legal standing to sue Obama because they were directly injured by his election are McCain and Palin. They have not sued or joined in any suit.

McCain's a wimp and he was the beneficiary of Democrats declaring him elegible with their nonbinding resolution. Politicians don't generally bite each other in the hand.

The Republican Party deals with Barack Obama as the duly elected president of the United States. They even invited him to their winter retreat and asked no questions about his eligiblity.

It's not like Obama would do much but lie or complain. What would be the point??

Obama is 63-0 in getting legal challenges dismissed, issuing decisions in his favor or rejected by courts all across the nation and at every level of the judicial system including seven rejections at the Supreme Court.

I predicted a long time ago that no court in the country would touch this case because of the huge, cult-like popularity Obama enjoyed and his strong margin of victory over wimpy McCain. Since no court has actually had the nads to hear an actual case, it doesn't mean a whole lot that these cases have all been dismissed, other than the courts being afraid to tackle it.

There’s no “there” there.

We know Obama has little up there ... America deserves the whole truth and nothing but the truth instead of ambiguities and misdirection.

[edge919]

Not in a civil lawsuit, unless discovery is granted.

[edge919]

I’d ask why Obama sat on it for so long.

[opentalk]

--Obama mentions his birth certificate in passing on Page 26 of his 1995 memoir, “Dreams of My Father.” “I discovered this article, folded away among my birth certificate and old vaccination forms, when I was in high school,” he wrote. --

I wonder why he included this in his book. Was it to deflect inquires. Seems odd he admits he has a copy but will not disclose it.

The Kerchner court case is still active, with Obama needing to file their response on March 8th, I don't hold much hope, but this is after O's state of the union speech, where he showed disrespect for the courts