Posted on 12/04/2009 4:47:27 PM PST by cycle of discernment
OFFICIAL REQUEST BY CONGRESSMEN TO SEE OBAMA’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE WILL BE THE STRAW WHICH BREAKS THIS CAMEL’S BACK
Political analysis by John Charlton
Obama's presidential campaign was hailed for its forceful imagery, but after 11 months the public has come to understand the undisputed facts about him, don't fit the requirements of the U.S. Constitution.
(Dec. 4, 2009) — Georgia’s representative in the U.S. House, Nathan Deal announced in early November that he and 10 House colleagues were going to sign a joint letter, asking Obama to publicly reveal his birth certificate,.
The simple enough question was rebuffed and ridiculed by the Main Stream Media, and even the Savannah Morning News, as if a birth certificate was some sort of private journal or diary of past affairs.
The mere fact that the liberals and progressives ridiculed Nathan Deal — whose only interest is to quiet the nation — shows that they have no substantive reason to oppose the request. It further shows that they know that Obama cannot oblige Deal and his co-signatories, for in Democratic circles nothing is a secret.
What will Obama say to Nathan Deal? The answer must come soon. Deal said that he was to send his letter after Thanksgiving. Any delay on the part of Barack Hussein Obama to oblige Deal, will only further erode his political influence in Washington, D.C..
Obama has been effectively checkmated by the concerted effort of public support, publicized lawsuits on the eligibility question, publicity campaigns such as those of World Net Daily and Charles Kerchner to put the issue in the face of liberals on a constant basis, and blogs and bloggers the world over.
If Obama obliges him, then the online image of a Certificate of Live Birth (COLB) provided by his campaign will be proven a forgery, according to the consensus of opinion of citizens who have studied the images posted on the net and found some images of the allegedly same document, contain a HI State seal and some do not.
If Obama does refuses, however, it will only further confirm that he has something to hide.
Palins remark that it is a valid issue and Ogden’s resignation as Deputy U.S. Attorney General in the same week, following the sending of Nathan Deal’s letter, appear to be diagnostic signs that the political establishment understands the risks and imminent crisis about to break. The publicity garnered by the testimony of the U.S. Marine, who goes by the nik, Race Bannon, only further tilt the Obama regime towards political implosion.
Even the pulse of Obama’s political support on the net tells the tale: a lull and quiet among them posting comments at opposition blogs is noticeable. There remain only the violent, the perverse and the somewhat mad to carry on the cheers of “Change,” which were the mind numbing drum beat of the Obama for American campaign, just 14 months ago.
The political momentum of the nation now follows diverse roads to the same destination, and the resulting fireworks are going to be much brighter and invigorating than those of any Fourth of July in many a year!
So what you are sying is that Sarah Palin, 10 Congressmen, a whole bunch of Chrysler/GM auto dealers and Donofrio are all foolish too???
If you bothered to read 385, you'd see I am familiar with Apuzzo and already noted him before your post.
Yep. On this issue. Foolish isn’t defined by who your are or aren’t, but by what you do. And to the extent what passes for conservatism these days embraces this nonsense, it’s only harming itself.
Since he avoids discussing aspects of statute that do not support his opinion, and since British scholars don't seem to agree, I just don't care.
"I just don't care." That IS the problem we are facing in our country today, when we have "old and tired conservatives" who are willing to sell out our country on a voter fraud and pleasing to an illegal alien and usurper in the W.H. BTW, there is plenty of Omega3 in kippers. That would give some needed energy instead of being tired all the time!!!
"Convoluted opinion" What statute does not support his opinion???
Ater all of your spamming, you certainly is NOT considered to be a Conservative among us, whether we are "Birthers" or not putting you in the high class of "After-Birther", which you really are instead of a Conservative!!!
That is simply not true. She never said anything of the sort. Did you listen to the entire McRae tape, or did you only listen to the birther-edited version that cuts her off right before she says he was born in Hawaii?
You have been pretty quite lately???
Now long before the 2008 election we had several African newspaper claiming your pal as a "Kenyan born U.S. Senator to be." So here is how Apuzzo is seeing this played out and I heard and saw the videos"!!!
23. An Investigator working for Philip Berg, Esq. learned the following which is contained in the investigator's affidavit dated October 30, 2008, that was filed with a Federal District Court in the case of Berg v. Obama, 08-cv-04083: Obama's step-grandmother, Sarah Obama, told Bishop McRae, who was in the United States, during a telephonic interview on October 12, 2008, while she was in her home located in Alego-Kogello, Kenya, that was full of security police and people and family who were celebrating then-Senator Obama's success story, that she witnessed Obama's birth in Kenya, not the United States (the English and Swahili conversation is recorded and available for listening). She was adamant about this fact not once but twice. The conversation which was placed on speaker phone was translated into English by "Kweli Shuhubia" and one of the grandmother's grandsons who were present with the grandmother in the house. After the grandmother made the same statement twice, her grandson intervened, saying "No, No, No, He [sic] was born in the United States." During the interview, the grandmother never changed her reply that she was present when Obama was born in Kenya. The fact that later in the same interview she change her statement to say that Obama was born in Hawaii does not change the fact that she at first stated twice that she was present when Obama was born in Kenya. I cannot imagine a grandmother not knowing whether she was present or not at the birth of her American Senator and U.S. Presidential candidate grandson.
24. The investigator then personally went to the hospital in Mombasa, Kenya. He spoke with the Provincial Civil Registrar and he learned that there were records of Ann Dunham giving birth to "Barack Hussein Obama, III" in Mombassa, Kenya on August 4, 1961. The investigator then "spoke directly with an Official, the Principal Registrar, who openly confirmed the birthing records of Senator Barack H. Obama, Jr. and his mother were present, however, the file on Barack H. Obama, Jr. was classified and profiled. The Official explained Barack Hussein Obama, Jr. [sic] birth in Kenya is top secret. [H]e was further instructed to go to the Attorney General's Office and to the Minister in Charge of Immigration if [he] wanted further information."
25. The Kenyan Ambassador to the United States, Peter N.R.O. Ogego, confirmed on November 6, 2008, during a radio interview with Detroit radio talk-show hosts Mike Clark, Trudi Daniels, and Marc Fellhauer on WRIF's "Mike In the Morning," that "President-Elect Obama" was born in Kenya and that his birth place was already a "well-known" attraction.
Of course, if you want to believe Apuzzo, be my guest. Just don't be stunned when serious people ignore him and his opinions and cases go nowhere.
“Ater all of your spamming, you certainly is NOT considered to be a Conservative among us, whether we are “Birthers” or not putting you in the high class of “After-Birther”, which you really are instead of a Conservative!!!”
I am known to be a conservative to the people whose opinion matters to me. I worked on the Reagan campaign and have done get out the vote work for multiple conservative candidates. The tenets of conservatism do not include raving “usurper” and shilling incredulous conspiracy theories just because we lost an election.
Also, the definition of spamming is "Unsolicited e-mail, often of a commercial nature, sent indiscriminately to multiple mailing lists, individuals, or newsgroups; junk e-mail." This, by contrast, is simply posting comments on an open forum.
They way some disrupt others discussions are also called “spamming” like some of you constantly do!!!
My bad. I missed the fact that the code was Amended in 2000. So you are right, Obama Jr. would not have become a US citizen automatically upon establishing residency in the US if he really was born in Kenya. His mom would have had to wait five years before applying for his naturalization.
That still doesn't establish a motive for her to fraudulantly register his birth.
You speculate that she did it in order to make sure his dad could not take him back to Kenya. That makes no sense. Surely if he had actually been born in Kenya, his dad would have known about it and would be able to produce proof. Therefore, if she really had fraudulantly registered his birth in the US, he could easily challange that registration if he thought doing so was in his best interest.
So I really don't see how you have a point. There's no way they could have pulled one over on dad by fraudulantly registering his birth.
My original point thus stands. There was nothing to gain by committing fraud to register his birth. Obama's mom could have easily obtained US citizenship for him legally even if he had been born in Kenya. It would have taken 5 years, but so what? The fact that she was a US citizen gave her access to all the welfare programs she would ever want.
Perhaps it's easy to fake a BC. However, I don't think it's quite as easy to hack into the Hawaii department of public health and create a false vital record that says you were born in Hawaii. And not get caught.
But I'm not a hacker, so what do I know?
LOL. You'll forgive me if I'm not ver quick to take the word of some anonymous "investigator," whose credentials I cannot verify, who just happens to be in the pay of a guy who thinks 9-11 was an inside job.
Now long before the 2008 election we had several African newspaper claiming your pal as a "Kenyan born U.S. Senator to be."
Yes, and we know all African newspapers never get their facts wrong./sarcasm.
Well, I don't know whether or not that is true. It's possible that the British government considers him to be a British citizen. I'll let the legal experts worry about that. So long as he never acted on it, and never obtained a British passport or never partook of any of the benefits of British citizenship, I don't see why anyone should care.
I'd rather focus on attacking him for real unpatriotic acts that actually matter, such as his decision to give war criminals captured on the battlefield access to our civilian courts.
Yep, that is very nice progressive "Tap-Dancing"!!!
Well now you appear to be approaching this with a little more logic and fact rather than bleeding heart emotion. So please point out where you get your information that in 1961 Obie's mom would have had to wait 5 years to apply for his naturalization and could apply on his behalf? (hint this is before 1995)
That still doesn't establish a motive for her to fraudulantly register his birth.
Your conclusion is still based on your "new" information that it would only take 5 years for his mom to apply for his naturalization, if that is not true, then your conclusion is once again suspect.
You speculate that she did it in order to make sure his dad could not take him back to Kenya. That makes no sense. Surely if he had actually been born in Kenya, his dad would have known about it and would be able to produce proof. Therefore, if she really had fraudulantly registered his birth in the US, he could easily challange that registration if he thought doing so was in his best interest.
So I really don't see how you have a point. There's no way they could have pulled one over on dad by fraudulantly registering his birth.
If Obie jr was born in Kenya would Obie Sr even know mama fraudulently registered his birth in Hawaii? Would you rather fight for your child with the child in Kenya (foreign to you) or in the United States? Tell me how a Hawaii court will accept a foreign birth certificate over a Hawaiian one? Sure bring witnesses from Kenya etc, how much will that cost. And of course mama could disappear with the baby,(is that what she did when she left Hawaii?) do you think Obies SR would give up his ambition and dreams to spend his time and little money he doesn't have to chase after a child he may not be that attached to? The immediate problem for mama was to get the child into the US, the rest may or may not follow....We do not know much about the relationship of Stanley Ann and Obie Sr except they separated sometime before the September 1961. When Stanley Ann left Hawaii for Washington St, did Obie Sr. even know where she went? Did he care? Did he make a deal to not fight custody in return for her not demanding child support allowing Obie Sr to continue with school? Did his opportunity to go to Harvard enter into his decision making process?
My original point thus stands. There was nothing to gain by committing fraud to register his birth. Obama's mom could have easily obtained US citizenship for him legally even if he had been born in Kenya. It would have taken 5 years, but so what? The fact that she was a US citizen gave her access to all the welfare programs she would ever want.
My reply is as above, your conclusion should be predicated on correct information. Is it?
Lets go back and look at the problem as it would have evolved in 1961. IF Obie was born in Kenya and mom and he were in Kenya. First, how would Obie return to the USA? If he had a fraudulent Hawaii Birth Certificate he could return, if not how would he enter the US? What documents would he use? Would he not be a Kenyan citizen, have a Kenyan Passport and need a US Visa to enter the US? What category of visa would he be eligible for? Would both parents have to sign his visa application? How long would it take to get the visa? How long before he could become a citizen and what would he have to do to become a citizen? Could he give up his US residence and travel to Indonesia? Would that affect his visa status and ability to naturalize? All these things make it much simpler and give reason for mom to try and get him a fraudulent Hawaiian birth certificate, do they not?
Once again what evidence is there Obie was born in any hospital?
Title III, Chapter 2 of the Immigration and Nationality act of 1952, which was the law governing immigration an naturalization at the time.
First, how would Obie return to the USA? If he had a fraudulent Hawaii Birth Certificate he could return, if not how would he enter the US?
Under Title I, section 101 of the same act, any child of a US citizen is entitled to non-quota immigrant status. Under Title II section 203, conciliar officals, upon proof that the child in question is the offspring of a US citizen (i.e. upon showing mama Obama's passport and bambi's BC), are required to grant visas to such children.
Bottom line: it would have been very easy for mama Obama to bring Bambi back into the USA and to naturalize him without committing fraud.
As to answer some of your other questions:
If Obie jr was born in Kenya would Obie Sr even know mama fraudulently registered his birth in Hawaii?
Well, if Obie Sr. got into a custody dispute with mama Obama, and she produced a Hawaiian birth certificate, I think that would tip him off.
Would you rather fight for your child with the child in Kenya (foreign to you) or in the United States?
Irrelevant, since we've already established that she did not need to committ fraud to allow him to enter the USA.
Tell me how a Hawaii court will accept a foreign birth certificate over a Hawaiian one?
Well, if the sole basis of the birth certificate is sworn testimony from grandma, and the presumed father disputes the validity of this testimony (and he would be the presumed father, since he was married to mama Obama at the time of bambi's birth), and further he can produce an official document to support his case, then it seems to me any court would take that very seriously.
What category of visa would he be eligible for?
Nonquota immigrant visa.
Would both parents have to sign his visa application?
There is nothing in the law requiring it.
How long would it take to get the visa?
The law instructs consular officials to grant the visa upon proof of eligibility, so it seems that it would be pretty quick.
How long before he could become a citizen and what would he have to do to become a citizen?
5 years. The procedures for naturalizing children of US citizens were never particularly difficult.
Could he give up his US residence and travel to Indonesia? Would that affect his visa status and ability to naturalize?
He didn't travel to Indonesia until he was six, by which time he already would have been naturalized.
But even if he traveled abroad before then, there would be nothing to impede him getting naturalized. So long as he had a non-quota immigrant visa, he could enter and re-enter the US without restriction. So long as he did not interupt the 5 year period of residence, he would be eligible for naturalization at age 5.
And even if he did interupt that period of residence, all he would have to do to get US citienship is reside within the United States for a period of 5 years before his 18th birthday, fill out some forms, take an oath, etc.
All these things make it much simpler and give reason for mom to try and get him a fraudulent Hawaiian birth certificate, do they not?
Not when you consider the fact that by committing fraud, she would be risking a felony conviction.
Why risk a felony conviction if you can relatively easily 1) obtain an immigrant visa for your child and 2) get him naturalized once he's lived in the US for 5 years?
Title III, Chapter 2 of the Immigration and Nationality act of 1952, which was the law governing immigration an naturalization at the time.
Which particular section are you referring to? By the way its also referred to as the McCarren-Walter Act and became effective 12-24-52.
...First, how would Obie return to the USA? If he had a fraudulent Hawaii Birth Certificate he could return, if not how would he enter the US?
Under Title I, section 101 of the same act, any child of a US citizen is entitled to non-quota immigrant status. Under Title II section 203, conciliar officals, upon proof that the child in question is the offspring of a US citizen (i.e. upon showing mama Obama's passport and bambi's BC), are required to grant visas to such children.
CORRECT.
Bottom line: it would have been very easy for mama Obama to bring Bambi back into the USA and to naturalize him without committing fraud.
Don't think so.
As to answer some of your other questions:
...If Obie jr was born in Kenya would Obie Sr even know mama fraudulently registered his birth in Hawaii?
Well, if Obie Sr. got into a custody dispute with mama Obama, and she produced a Hawaiian birth certificate, I think that would tip him off.
AH yes if they got into a dispute, and if they didn't? Did Obie Sr know Stanley took Obie jr to Washington State?
....Would you rather fight for your child with the child in Kenya (foreign to you) or in the United States?
Irrelevant, since we've already established that she did not need to committ fraud to allow him to enter the USA.
We did? So when did Obie Sr allow his son to leave Kenya? Are you familiar with the problems American wives have getting their children back to the US from Muslim countries?
...Tell me how a Hawaii court will accept a foreign birth certificate over a Hawaiian one?
Well, if the sole basis of the birth certificate is sworn testimony from grandma, and the presumed father disputes the validity of this testimony (and he would be the presumed father, since he was married to mama Obama at the time of bambi's birth), and further he can produce an official document to support his case, then it seems to me any court would take that very seriously.
Yeah presumed bigamous father is going to testify and get nailed for bigamy in Hawaii. Is he that stupid? He would be easily impeached.
....What category of visa would he be eligible for?
Nonquota immigrant visa.
CORRECT IR-2 child of US citizen.
...Would both parents have to sign his visa application?
There is nothing in the law requiring it.
Really? How about an application for naturalization?
...How long would it take to get the visa?
The law instructs consular officials to grant the visa upon proof of eligibility, so it seems that it would be pretty quick.
Have you ever dealt with the State Department, US Embassies overseas? Do you have any idea how long it would take?
...How long before he could become a citizen and what would he have to do to become a citizen?
5 years. The procedures for naturalizing children of US citizens were never particularly difficult.
Im still waiting for you to provide the applicable section of law that says that.
...Could he give up his US residence and travel to Indonesia? Would that affect his visa status and ability to naturalize? ...
He didn't travel to Indonesia until he was six, by which time he already would have been naturalized.
As above, still waiting for you to provide the law you state is applicable. And then we are to believe Soetoro would let his step son or adopted child become a US Citizen while planning on returning to Indonesia? A leap of faith IMO.
But even if he traveled abroad before then, there would be nothing to impede him getting naturalized. So long as he had a non-quota immigrant visa, he could enter and re-enter the US without restriction. So long as he did not interupt the 5 year period of residence, he would be eligible for naturalization at age 5.
Wrong. (hint) Residency is different for a LAPR or person Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residency than to be Naturalized.
And even if he did interupt that period of residence, all he would have to do to get US citienship is reside within the United States for a period of 5 years before his 18th birthday, fill out some forms, take an oath, etc.
So he could naturalize before he is 18? Where is that in the law?
....All these things make it much simpler and give reason for mom to try and get him a fraudulent Hawaiian birth certificate, do they not?
Not when you consider the fact that by committing fraud, she would be risking a felony conviction.
So lying on her divorce and Obie Sr lying about his previous marriage isn't risking a felony conviction?
Why risk a felony conviction if you can relatively easily 1) obtain an immigrant visa for your child and 2) get him naturalized once he's lived in the US for 5 years?
Hehehehe, is Obies daddy the Kenyan Colonel going to naturalize?
The complete cite is Title III, Chapter 2, section 313. My apologies for not specifying this earlier.
As to the rest of your post, as I see it, you are making two arguments:
1) Grandma Obama had an incentive to fraudulantly register bambi's birth in Hawaii so mama Obama could bring him home from Kenya.
2) By fraudulantly registering him in Hawaii, mama Obama would have made it easier to keep him in Hawaii in case she her marriage fell appart and daddy wanted to take Obie Jr. to Kenya.
I'll dispose of them one at a time.
Number 1:
I've already established that immigration law at the time made Obie Jr. eligible for a non-quota immigrant visa, and it would be very easy to get one for him. So there would be no legal impediment to mama Obama bringing him home without a Hawaiian birth certificate.
However, you seem to be arguing that Obie Sr. might pose a problem in that he might not allow mama Obama to bring him home.
This makes little sense to me for two reasons.
A: It seems highly unliely Obie Sr. would try to stop his son from returning to Hawaii. Obie Sr. was a student in Hawaii, and by all accounts was determined to finish his degree. He himself, therefore, would surely have been planning to return back to Hawaii if he were in fact in Kenya during the summer of 1961 (of course, there is no evidence he was in Kenya in 1961, but let's go with it for sake of argument). Why would he want to stop his son from returning to Hawaii with him? This makes no sense.
B: Even if for some completely irrational reason he wanted to stop his son from returning to Hawaii, I don't see how a fraudulantly obtained Hawaiian birth certificate would prevent him from doing so. Suppose mama Obama says, "I'm taking Jr. back to Hawaii," and Obie Sr. says "No." How exactly would the Hawaiian BC help mama? If Bambi was really born in Kenya, surely it would be relatively easy for Obie Sr. to prove in front of a Kenyan court that the Hawaiian birth certificate was fraudulant.
Now lets go to argument number 2.
You assert that mama Obama might have been worried that once they are back in Hawaii, Obie Sr. might want to dump her and to take their son back to Kenya. So she fraudulantly obtains a Hawaiian birth certificate, without his knowledge, to prevent this.
Here again your argument holds little water.
First of all, divorce courts generally give custody preference to the mother, and I know of no Hawaiian legal precedent or provision of family law under which the citizenship of the child would change that. Perhaps you can cite one.
Second of all, even if Jr's citizenship would have made difference in a custody battle, it would have been very easy for Obie Sr. to prove the US birth certificate was fraudulant if, in point of fact, Obie Jr. was born in Kenya.
So in the end your argument holds no water. There was no reason for either mama or grandma Obama to risk a felony conviction and fraudulantly register Jr.'s birth in Hawaii if he were in fact born in Kenya.
As to mama Obama risking a felony and committing fraud in the divorce papers, please elaborate. How, exactly did she commit fraud?
Woops. Typo. That's section 316.
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